Getting hydroxychloroquine
- Thread starter Spacealien2
- Start date
I think Dr. Ben would say 30 versus 13 over 18 hours is not a conclusive sampling size.
Ben's insights and command of the information are appreciated. At the end of the day, I still think Ben is offering a lot of opinion.
It kind of reminds me of the lawyers "quotation marks" who pop up and post on the forums as legal experts. A legal laymen like myself and others will point out that they are still just offering opinion. They get bent out of shape because they are lawyers.
I will say at least Ben doesn't try to say he is an expert in the field.
Given that you're a guy with absolutely NO legal knowledge or medical knowledge "quotation marks", I suggest you simply listen to the lawyers and doctors on the board when they offer you advice and stop arguing with them and asserting your ego as usual.
You still resent that fact that TOGuy and I slapped you down a month or more ago when you offered your own legal opinion "quotation marks" and now you want to wade into a fight with the only qualified doctor on this board who is willing to engage with the daily nonsense that you and your buddies pump out.
You're a time waster and an arguer "quotation marks" and that's pretty much it.
You're the classic example of the type of guy Ben mentions when he talks about unqualified people who argue with whatever expert gives them whatever advice doesn't suit them. Ben has 1,000 times or more the insight and knowledge into medical matters that you have. Yet the first thing you do is attack him.
This is hilarious. I need to start spending more time on TERB. Here I was thinking that TERB was just a place to go to work through my options to find that perfect gem. How silly was I?
Yes I provide opinion but atleast I try my best to highlight when things are opinion. It is also my opinion that my opinions are insightful haha. I also try to be evidence based in what I say.
The thing though I try to do is for people to understand the complexity behind medical evidence. There is an unbiased system (or close to it ) that has gotten our society this far and now we have an influx of people that are claiming expertise and citing evidence incorrectly. Regarding a controversial topic such as this there are going to be studies on BOTH sides and that’s when critical appraisal and medical/scientific expertise comes into play which takes year of experience. If you have something to prove you can find a study to show it. Googling or going on blogs or YouTube videos is not a review of the literature on the topic. I just encourage people to trust the medical experts cause they go through the proper channels. In today’s political environment though people don’t trust you I’d you’re on the other side even on things they don’t know about.
Why? Even if the McGill study is a massive success, it won't contradict anything that the FDA has been saying.
As Ben19 keeps pointing out, there is mixed evidence and all scientists are saying is don't get ahead of yourself.
You keep saying to follow the data but you seem determined not to do that.
WyattEarp's Dis-Contented Heart
Just my thoughts and observations after reading your TERB posts.
WTF is your problem with lawyers now? You seem to have problems and conflicts with everyone, everywhere you go. I surmise that you are a malcontent with an axe to grind with pretty much everyone.
Just my thoughts and observations after reading your TERB posts.
Go to video time 42:42
What I am saying the Naysayers ( TDS & MSM ) had basically unfairly had demonized HCQ and I am saying wait a minute watch the video don’t get ahead of yourself wait until a properly peer reviewed is released!
All the data is showing when HCQ + zinc + arzithmyocen given earlier before the intubation stage covid-19 patients do extremely well, ( When the McGill studies is released it will show who right or wrong).
Yes it does contradict everything that FDA and NIAID warning about HCQ about risk on heart death.
Suddenly, hydroxychlooquine is inexcusablely risky after 70 years , hundreds tons of doses produced and ten millions exposures without any recorded heart death.
NIAID and FDA warning about HCQ are completely unfounded based on a extensive review of the scientific literature by the W.H.O. Itself.
Precovid-19 not a single death from antimaria ( HCQ) drug due to heart deaths!
Over 70 milion doses given given precovid-19 according WHO data!
Suddenly HCQ is hig risk for heart deaths! Like said follow the data!
This is according to WHO in 2016 on HCQ!
So follow the data ignore the fear monger on HCQ!
Data are the facts! Not to demonize a drug HCQ because of TDS.
I can wait until McGill peer reviewed studies come out! Then I will post for everyone to see.
By then, HCQ & arizithomycen & Zinc combo treatment can be established for treatment of covid-19!
Facts are the best and follow the data!
Yes I know that all studies must be peer reviewed studies on HCQ which I am 100% agreement on! It must be done fairly and non biased! Double blinded studies, randomly large sample size and with three drug given ( HCQ & Arzithmyocen & Zinc) with the correct doses and given before the intubation stage or ICU stage to determine how effective is the treatment!
If the studies from McGill says it HCQ garbage then we move on!
You say lets follow the facts yet claim that HCQ has had 0 cardiac deaths.... In fact in medical school its taught as a drug that prolonged QTc interval in ECGs. If you spoke to any rheumatologist prior to COVID they would have told you this. Now the overnight youtube experts are claiming otherwise. Again youtube videos are NOT EVIDENCE.
Heck I spent 30 seconds searching this and I found a systematic review showing that it has cardiac complications published in 2018.....
"Eighty-six articles were identified, reporting individual cases or short series, providing information on 127 patients (65.4% female). A majority of patients were treated with chloroquine (58.3%), with the remaining treated with hydroxychloroquine (39.4%), or both in succession. Most patients had been treated for a long time (median 7 years, minimum 3 days; maximum 35 years) and with a high cumulative dose (median 1235 g for hydroxychloroquine and 803 g for chloroquine). Conduction disorders were the main side effect reported, affecting 85% of patients. Other non-specific adverse cardiac events included ventricular hypertrophy (22%), hypokinesia (9.4%), heart failure (26.8%), pulmonary arterial hypertension (3.9%), and valvular dysfunction (7.1%). For 78 patients reported to have been withdrawn from treatment, some recovered normal heart function (44.9%), while for others progression was unfavorable, resulting in irreversible damage (12.9%) or death (30.8%)." PMID 29858838
In the grand scheme of things HCQ is not that unsafe of a medication but yo claim it has 0 heart impact and that all the people that have documented deaths because of the cardiac complications are what actors and their doctors pathologist and public health agencies all in scheme to get money is honestly ridicilous. If you are not going to trust science then dont use science to justify other things you say...
Your video guy is a shit researcher or has a serious axe to grind.
Here is a study citing the risks from 2006.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16615675/
Here is a 2017 review pointing out that it is rare but dangerous and can usually be dealt with by just discontinuing the drug when you start to see heart rhythm changes.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29858838
The FDA has warned against the possibility of sudden death due to prolongation of the QT interval since at *least* 2017.
https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2017/009768s037s045s047lbl.pdf
it's right there on page 4.
There has been no change except to point out that if you suddenly give this to lots of people who wouldn't normally get it there could be a problem.
This isn't fear mongering, it is being careful with moving a drug from one setting to another when it is being overhyped.
Yes, follow the data.
See what the McGill study says.
It may show great effect in COVID-19, that will be great.
I still won't be eating any crow because not believing it is a wonder drug just because Trump wants it to be, and being careful to not overhype something I am perfectly comfortable with.
The drug was FDA approved:
https://www.healio.com/rheumatology...lication-to-address-covid-19-related-shortage
But TERBites think they know better?
https://www.healio.com/rheumatology...lication-to-address-covid-19-related-shortage
But TERBites think they know better?
No one is arguing against it being FDA approved.... being fda approved doesent mean it works for sure for a specific reason. Again If people understood drug development process they would understand this. you can even get an off label prescription for it anywhere. and I’m not even arguing it wil not work. I’m just saying there are mixed results that it may have a small benifit in reducing viral loads and we need to wait for more studies which are underway and follow the scientific process
Ok that We have an agreement follow the data . But can you explain why there are conflicting viewpoints between your studies you post and WHO recommendations that indicates by the researcher in the video?
This what the researchers point out in the above video see video time 34:09 .
PreCovid W.H.O. On Chloroquine
Key conclusion
* Apart from halofantrine, the oral anti malarial drugs, particularly chloroquine and piperaquine, have been used extensively with very few reports of cardiotoxicity.
* Rapid parenteral administration of chloroquine, quinine, or quinidine may cause life-threatening hypotension.
4 Conclusion and recommendations
Despite hundreds of millions of doses administered in the treatment of malaria, there have been no reports of sudden unexplained death associated with quinine, chloroquine or amodiaquine, although each drug causes QT/QTc interval prolongation. Unfortunately, there are relatively few prospective studies of the electrocardiographic effects of these drugs.
https://www.who.int/malaria/mpac/mpac-mar2017-erg-cardiotoxicity-report-session2.pdf
The above link to the W.H.0. pdf file you can take a look at it!
This researchers clearly pointed out hundreds million of doses and no reports unexplained heart death with chloroquine ! Someone have to qualify the risk or the number of death due to HCQ. Right now according to W.H.O. hundreds millions of doses given and no reports death.
PS. So who is correct your studies you posted or WHO recommendations ? Both you and WHO cannot be correct! That what the researchers in pointing out !
PPS. I know every drug have risk! What is the acceptable risk 1 death out of 1 million?
The WHO report (not study) you linked to is in response to concerns at that time regarding the cardio toxicity of a group of medications and not just HCQ. They aimed to stratify the risk and in that report their opinion is that the risk is not that much. But they never say it’s 0. That very fact they set out a task force to study the cardiac risk should hopefully make it obvious that there were concerns about cardio toxicity prior to covid. They say they did not find any reports of TqP death secondary to QTc prologation Ans even acknowledge that it is a hard thing to point as in order to show that you have to have a 12-lead ecg at the exact time of death. There are other causes of cardiac death which they even discuss, their report again was in response to cardiac deaths that was the whole premise of it.
there are systematic reviews https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29858838/ showing there are deaths related to cardiac doses. The risk isn’t that high and we all acknowledge that but it’s not 0 as you Ans your YouTube expert claim.
Also now hcq is being prescribed for a different indication in a different setting and in patients that are polymedicated and often in ICU so any cardiac effect is altered and if you know anything about medicine you would know that cardio toxicity is sensitive to physiological changes and other medications both of which are present in an ICU bound covid patient. Protocols in icus prior to all this mess was to get an ECG before giving people these type of medications ... now there are overnight experts who don’t understand any of this saying it’s all “fake news” when those people who actually give and study these medications knew about this stuff for years and that is why that who report is there in the first place.
My personal opinion is that the cardiac risk is low to very low and if I more evidence comes in support or hcq then that small cardiac effect can me overlooked in healthy patients. But to claim the cardiac risk is 0 and everyone else is lying is ridiculous.
You are way too emotionally invested into this drug but claim you are after the data and evidence. You have to consider data and evidence on a big scale and consider the context behind them. When you on the outset have a hypothesis and even worst political/emotional investment into something you can’t really be objective and combine that with no expertise in medicine or science then it jusr is a recipe for “fake news “. Go search how a systematic review is done and maybe you can publish a study doing one lol
There are 5079 primary peer-reviewed studies as of today on hydroxycholorquine published. To claim anything based of a few youtube videos and go against those that have been reading all these articles prior to it becoming cool after Trump mentioned it I hope shows how ridiculous it is
there are systematic reviews https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29858838/ showing there are deaths related to cardiac doses. The risk isn’t that high and we all acknowledge that but it’s not 0 as you Ans your YouTube expert claim.
Also now hcq is being prescribed for a different indication in a different setting and in patients that are polymedicated and often in ICU so any cardiac effect is altered and if you know anything about medicine you would know that cardio toxicity is sensitive to physiological changes and other medications both of which are present in an ICU bound covid patient. Protocols in icus prior to all this mess was to get an ECG before giving people these type of medications ... now there are overnight experts who don’t understand any of this saying it’s all “fake news” when those people who actually give and study these medications knew about this stuff for years and that is why that who report is there in the first place.
My personal opinion is that the cardiac risk is low to very low and if I more evidence comes in support or hcq then that small cardiac effect can me overlooked in healthy patients. But to claim the cardiac risk is 0 and everyone else is lying is ridiculous.
You are way too emotionally invested into this drug but claim you are after the data and evidence. You have to consider data and evidence on a big scale and consider the context behind them. When you on the outset have a hypothesis and even worst political/emotional investment into something you can’t really be objective and combine that with no expertise in medicine or science then it jusr is a recipe for “fake news “. Go search how a systematic review is done and maybe you can publish a study doing one lol
There are 5079 primary peer-reviewed studies as of today on hydroxycholorquine published. To claim anything based of a few youtube videos and go against those that have been reading all these articles prior to it becoming cool after Trump mentioned it I hope shows how ridiculous it is
:yo:
I'd add that there have been quite a number of promising results. Which may explain the FDA approval for use.
Now is the time for chit chat to end until the results of use in NYC, double blind tests, etc, are in.
That is, when the FDA & Trump are justified ;
Dude, you're a layman using google for your information. GIVE IT up! You along with Canadaman and a few others are coming off as raving lunatics.
He never claimed that is zero death you have to watch the whole entirely video! .. He was trying to figure out what is the risk ?
He wanted to find out or quantify the risk!
He could not find any death associated due to HCQ meanwhile all those newspaper headlines by FDA and NCBI screaming taking HCQ is high risk due to cardiac!
He is in agreement with you which clearly at beginning of his presentation that he trying to point out it low risk or extremely low risk vs the screaming headline from newspaper quoting or maybe misquoting of FDA that is high risk and potential high risk of cardiac failure from taking HCQ.
You should not attack someone characters like Dr. Chris Martenson by taking something out of context without watching the whole video! Which you clearly didn’t watch the whole video. I think Dr Chris Martenson have lot of integrity . You only a medical student. But if you clearly feel he is totally incorrect and his video is garbage! I dare you to email him! Because he will respond to your email & question and will post his response on his video!
And I will post over here on Terb so you can watch it. If you want I can post his email address on this post here for you. .. lol
PS By the way ... He has a PhD in pathology from Duke university and also MBA from ( Cornell) , VP of a Fortune 500 companies.
FDA approved the use of the drug, but only as a “Emergency Use Authorization”. Here is a direct copy/paste from FDA’s FAQ on this:
“Frequently Asked Questions on the Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) for Chloroquine Phosphate and Hydroxychloroquine Sulfate for Certain Hospitalized COVID-19 Patients
Q: What is an Emergency Use Authorization?
A: In certain types of emergencies, the HHS Secretary may issue a determination and declaration under the Food Drug and Cosmetic Act that permits FDA to issue emergency use authorizations (EUAs) to facilitate access to medical countermeasures (drugs, biologics, vaccines, and devices) that can be used to diagnose, treat or prevent a serious disease or condition in a public health emergency.
Products authorized for use in this way may not be approved by FDA for any use, or they may be approved for other uses but not for the emergency use. FDA decides whether the use of the product is likely to more helpful than harmful for the emergency use; i.e., the agency determines that the known and potential benefits of the medical products for their intended uses outweigh their known and potential risks. This authorization is reserved for emergency situations and is NOT the same as FDA approval or licensure.
Q: What does this EUA allow?
A: This EUA allows chloroquine phosphate and hydroxychloroquine sulfate donated to the Strategic National Stockpile (SNS) and distributed to states to be used by licensed health care providers to treat adults and teens hospitalized with COVID-19 who weigh more than 50 kg (110 pounds). The drugs should be used when participation in a clinical trial is not possible and if the health care provider feels the potential benefit to the patient outweighs the potential risk. Information on product distribution from the SNS can be found on this HHS webpage.
Q: Are chloroquine phosphate or hydroxychloroquine sulfate approved by the FDA to treat COVID-19?
A: No. Hydroxychloroquine sulfate and some versions of chloroquine phosphate are FDA-approved to treat malaria. Hydroxychloroquine sulfate is also FDA-approved to treat lupus and rheumatoid arthritis.”
But, also remember that the same FDA, after further information came available, said this yesterday:
“The FDA is aware of reports of serious heart rhythm problems in patients with COVID-19 treated with hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine, often in combination with azithromycin and other QT prolonging medicines. We are also aware of increased use of these medicines through outpatient prescriptions. Therefore, we would like to remind health care professionals and patients of the known risks associated with both hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine. We will continue to investigate risks associated with the use of hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine for COVID-19 and communicate publicly when we have more information.
Hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine have not been shown to be safe and effective for treating or preventing COVID-19. They are being studied in clinical trials for COVID-19, and we authorized their temporary use during the COVID-19 pandemic for treatment of the virus in hospitalized patients when clinical trials are not available, or participation is not feasible,through an Emergency Use Authorization (EUA). The medicines being used under the hydroxychloroquine/chloroquine EUA are supplied from the Strategic National Stockpile, the national repository of critical medical supplies to be used during public health emergencies. This safety communication reminds physicians and the public of risk information set out in the hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine healthcare provider fact sheets that were required by the EUA.
Hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine can cause abnormal heart rhythms such as QT interval prolongation and a dangerously rapid heart rate called ventricular tachycardia. These risks may increase when these medicines are combined with other medicines known to prolong the QT interval, including the antibiotic azithromycin, which is also being used in some COVID-19 patients without FDA approval for this condition. Patients who also have other health issues such as heart and kidney disease are likely to be at increased risk of these heart problems when receiving these medicines.”
