German Plane Crashes

[SkyRider]

I would not rule out terrorism.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/03/german-passenger-jet-crashes-french-alps-150324104354907.html

 

[Promo]

I would not rule out terrorism.

And I would not rule out equipment failure, pilot error, or a dozen other possible causes. When we start suspecting terrorists hiding under every rock, the terrorists have won.

Just curious, what in that article implied terrorism in your eyes?

 

[themaxx]

I would not rule out terrorism.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/03/german-passenger-jet-crashes-french-alps-150324104354907.html

This confirms that Pavlovian conditioning works on humans.
PM Harper now commands you: OBEY!!

 

[Aardvark154]

Way too early to do anything other than speculate, although the crash scene evidence does indicate a) the aircraft did not break-up in midair, b) that it flew into the ground at high speed, c) that air traffic control radar indicates that it was at a steady rate of descent for eight minutes. As much as such news can be possitive they have recovered one of the Black Boxes and may recover the other in the morning.

 

[jcpro]

I would not rule out terrorism.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/03/german-passenger-jet-crashes-french-alps-150324104354907.html

I would not rule out decompression.

 

[james t kirk]

24 years old.

50,000 hours on it's fuselage. Compression, decompression, compression, decompression.

Aluminum is very susceptible to metal fatigue and corrosion.

It used to be a Lufthansa plane that was too old for them, so they passed it off to their budget carrier.

 

[Aardvark154]

^ Yes, but this is Lufthansa, and you know all the stereotypes about Germans, engineering and attention to detail. There is a reason why Lufthansa has the type safety record it does. Further to even be allowed to fly in European airspace means adhering to very strict maintenance requirements.

Now there may indeed have been a fatigue failure, but I wouldn't put it on the aircraft being some hunk of junk

 

[Aardvark154]

Very tragic, besides the larger tragedy 16 secondary school students all from the same town coming back from an exchange program in Spain, two Opera Singers who had been performing in Barcelona and two infants.

 

[GameBoy27]

24 years old.

50,000 hours on it's fuselage. Compression, decompression, compression, decompression.

Aluminum is very susceptible to metal fatigue and corrosion.

It used to be a Lufthansa plane that was too old for them, so they passed it off to their budget carrier.

Don't know if that's the case but I remember flying Air Canada when they had a fleet of DC-9 aircraft in the 80's and 90's. As I boarded, I'd always check out the age of the plane which could be found on the serial number plate riveted to the inside of the door jam. Those planes were typically 20-30 years old. I was told that once they reached that age they were sold to Aeroflot where they were considered "new" planes, with many safety related issues.

Time will tell... RIP

 

[FAST]

Don't know if that's the case but I remember flying Air Canada when they had a fleet of DC-9 aircraft in the 80's and 90's. As I boarded, I'd always check out the age of the plane which could be found on the serial number plate riveted to the inside of the door jam. Those planes were typically 20-30 years old. I was told that once they reached that age they were sold to Aeroflot where they were considered "new" planes, with many safety related issues.

Time will tell... RIP

Brings back memories,...I flew on Aeroflop quite a few years back, on a plane that was made up of wings from the US. and the fuse from Russia, big plane, you walked up a ramp, put you "checked" baggage on a rack in the plane, then walked up some stairs to the passenger area, and found your seat.

The flight attendants were all stunning, helped take my mind off the of the plane.

Fast

 

[rafterman]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...8-11e4-8fce-3941fc548f1c_graphic.html?hpid=z2

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...e0fc70-d225-11e4-a62f-ee745911a4ff_story.html

The rapid but apparently controlled descent into terrain from cruise altitude with no evasive maneuvers is puzzling as is the lack of a mayday call. Hopefully the investigators will find the second black box and determine what went wrong.

 

[SkyRider]

There is no history of terrorists hijacking and/or attempting to hijack and crashing planes. Probably pilot and/or mechanical failure and/or "shit happens".

 

[MissCroft]

The rapid but apparently controlled descent into terrain from cruise altitude with no evasive maneuvers is puzzling as is the lack of a mayday call.

Apparently (from what I saw on CNN), the first priority is to try to control the plane, then make the mayday calls. Early reports said that there were Mayday calls but then said there were none....? Haven't been following it closely.

 

[james t kirk]

^ Yes, but this is Lufthansa, and you know all the stereotypes about Germans, engineering and attention to detail. There is a reason why Lufthansa has the type safety record it does. Further to even be allowed to fly in European airspace means adhering to very strict maintenance requirements.

Now there may indeed have been a fatigue failure, but I wouldn't put it on the aircraft being some hunk of junk

Almost 50,000 hours on its airframe. I can't remember the figure, but I was talking once to a guy who owned shit loads of heavy construction equipment and he told me that after X hours he sold it because it was just a disaster waiting to happen. I don't remember the number, but it wasn't a lot. (I remember thinking it was minimal actually.)

As to the German attention to detail........

What is the stereotype about Philippino attention to detail???

Because a few years ago I remember watching an episode of 60 minutes on aircraft maintenance that scared the shit out of me. It seems that many major airlines have their planes serviced in 2'nd and 3'rd world countries because (wait for it), it's cheap. REALLY cheap. It's easy to fly your plane to the Philippines isn't it? Hell, you can even take a plane full of people to pay for the trip. And guess where Lufthansa built a big maintenance facility? Yeppers, the Philippines.

The other thing I remember about that episode of 60 minutes is that over in Asia, they have come up with all kinds of innovative ways to save money. Like (literally) rooting around scrap yards for parts. They showed a guy with a big pail pulling jet engine blades out of a pile to install on planes that were being serviced. Scrap parts on the rule of the day. In Germany, they have one licensed Engineer for every 5 guys fixing planes. In the Phillippines, I think it's one licensed guy for the whole shift.

It's all about reducing costs and the square heads are no different there.


First, they buy parts from scrap yards all the time

 

[jcpro]

Almost 50,000 hours on its airframe. I can't remember the figure, but I was talking once to a guy who owned shit loads of heavy construction equipment and he told me that after X hours he sold it because it was just a disaster waiting to happen. I don't remember the number, but it wasn't a lot. (I remember thinking it was minimal actually.)

As to the German attention to detail........

What is the stereotype about Philippino attention to detail???

Because a few years ago I remember watching an episode of 60 minutes on aircraft maintenance that scared the shit out of me. It seems that many major airlines have their planes serviced in 2'nd and 3'rd world countries because (wait for it), it's cheap. REALLY cheap. It's easy to fly your plane to the Philippines isn't it? Hell, you can even take a plane full of people to pay for the trip. And guess where Lufthansa built a big maintenance facility? Yeppers, the Philippines.

The other thing I remember about that episode of 60 minutes is that over in Asia, they have come up with all kinds of innovative ways to save money. Like (literally) rooting around scrap yards for parts. They showed a guy with a big pail pulling jet engine blades out of a pile to install on planes that were being serviced. Scrap parts on the rule of the day. In Germany, they have one licensed Engineer for every 5 guys fixing planes. In the Phillippines, I think it's one licensed guy for the whole shift.

It's all about reducing costs and the square heads are no different there.


First, they buy parts from scrap yards all the time

I'm not an aeronautical engineer, but I come from family that has few in, both, fix and rotor fields. From what I gather, in the developed world, the standards for maintenance are extremely high and the penalties for fuck ups severe. There are no parts that go into an airframe without them being documented and verified. Counterfeit and and over hours parts do surface from time to time, but it is very rare for such parts to make it into an airframe or an engine of a diligent operator. It's very unusual, these days, for an aircraft of a reputable operator to go down due to maintenance. I would be very surprised if uncertified components caused this incident.

 

[wilbur]

Brings back memories,...I flew on Aeroflop quite a few years back, on a plane that was made up of wings from the US. and the fuse from Russia, big plane, you walked up a ramp, put you "checked" baggage on a rack in the plane, then walked up some stairs to the passenger area, and found your seat.

The flight attendants were all stunning, helped take my mind off the of the plane.

Fast

Tupolev of Russia designed 3% of the B787 airframe.
The titanium engine mounts for Airbus A-320 series airplanes are made in Russia.

So according to you, we shouldn't fly on these aircraft because the B787's airframe is going to collapse in the air and the engines are going to fall off Airbus airplanes.

Not to mention US astronauts who ride Soyuz rockets to the International Space Station ever month, it seems. Must be extremely dangerous compared to the Space Shuttle..... Oh Wait!

As for US made wings on Russian airplanes, total nonsense.

 

[wilbur]

Almost 50,000 hours on its airframe. I can't remember the figure, but I was talking once to a guy who owned shit loads of heavy construction equipment and he told me that after X hours he sold it because it was just a disaster waiting to happen. I don't remember the number, but it wasn't a lot. (I remember thinking it was minimal actually.)

As to the German attention to detail........

What is the stereotype about Philippino attention to detail???

Because a few years ago I remember watching an episode of 60 minutes on aircraft maintenance that scared the shit out of me. It seems that many major airlines have their planes serviced in 2'nd and 3'rd world countries because (wait for it), it's cheap. REALLY cheap. It's easy to fly your plane to the Philippines isn't it? Hell, you can even take a plane full of people to pay for the trip. And guess where Lufthansa built a big maintenance facility? Yeppers, the Philippines.

The other thing I remember about that episode of 60 minutes is that over in Asia, they have come up with all kinds of innovative ways to save money. Like (literally) rooting around scrap yards for parts. They showed a guy with a big pail pulling jet engine blades out of a pile to install on planes that were being serviced. Scrap parts on the rule of the day. In Germany, they have one licensed Engineer for every 5 guys fixing planes. In the Phillippines, I think it's one licensed guy for the whole shift.

It's all about reducing costs and the square heads are no different there.


First, they buy parts from scrap yards all the time

Aircraft overhauls done by independent contractors are always supervised by representatives of the client airline, and have to undergo acceptance tests and audits. A maintenance facility built by Lufthansa would hire local people, but the maintenance quality would conform to German standards.

Aircraft overhaul shops in Hong Kong, Singapore and China are top notch.

 

[wilbur]

Apparently (from what I saw on CNN), the first priority is to try to control the plane, then make the mayday calls. Early reports said that there were Mayday calls but then said there were none....? Haven't been following it closely.

Marseille (Air Traffic) Control broadcast a Mayday call on behalf of the plane when it dropped below minimum safe altitude. It was misconstrued as coming from the plane itself.

The basic principle when flying a plane is: Aviate, Navigate and Communicate. You can't do the second and third before first trying to do the first: control the airplane. Besides, nobody can help you from the ground anyway. It's like the passenger on a US airplane who thought he was doomed and he called 911 on hos cell phone; so did he expect the city fire department to string up a ladder to rescue him?

 

[rafterman]

Now being reported in the New York Times that one of the pilots left the cockpit and was locked out.

mobile.nytimes.com/2015/03/26/world/europe/germanwings-airbus-crash.html?referrer=

 

[red]

Almost 50,000 hours on its airframe. I can't remember the figure, but I was talking once to a guy who owned shit loads of heavy construction equipment and he told me that after X hours he sold it because it was just a disaster waiting to happen. I don't remember the number, but it wasn't a lot. (I remember thinking it was minimal actually.)

As to the German attention to detail........

What is the stereotype about Philippino attention to detail???

Because a few years ago I remember watching an episode of 60 minutes on aircraft maintenance that scared the shit out of me. It seems that many major airlines have their planes serviced in 2'nd and 3'rd world countries because (wait for it), it's cheap. REALLY cheap. It's easy to fly your plane to the Philippines isn't it? Hell, you can even take a plane full of people to pay for the trip. And guess where Lufthansa built a big maintenance facility? Yeppers, the Philippines.

The other thing I remember about that episode of 60 minutes is that over in Asia, they have come up with all kinds of innovative ways to save money. Like (literally) rooting around scrap yards for parts. They showed a guy with a big pail pulling jet engine blades out of a pile to install on planes that were being serviced. Scrap parts on the rule of the day. In Germany, they have one licensed Engineer for every 5 guys fixing planes. In the Phillippines, I think it's one licensed guy for the whole shift.

It's all about reducing costs and the square heads are no different there.


First, they buy parts from scrap yards all the time

Hours of flight time is important but not as important as the number of take offs and landings- a long haul plane can last over 20-25 years