Gerald Stanley found not guilty in death of Colten Boushie

[Smooth60]

All very reasoned, but after nine pages here and a whole lot of argy-bargy across the country it's clear that whatever justice was done, a very large part of the population couldn't see that it was done, and can' t put their trust in the result or the system.

I doubt anyone has the answer, but it is clear that a jury like that one, selected as that one was, cannot deliver a verdict that most people believe in. That's just one problem we need to fix.

What most people believe, their feelings, are not important to the process of Justice.It is not important what MOST people believe about what transpired at trial or what MOST people happened at the time. Juries are not supposed to take that into consideration at all.

Here is the Judges instructions to the Jurors, a long read, 90 minutes, but you will see there that the Judge has said explicitly that in his charge.

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada...n-boushie-jury-put-yourself-in-a-jurors-shoes

 

[Aardvark154]

I would have voted to convict him.

I'm pretty sure even your children would have used a peremptory challenge on you.

Being a person of strong convictions has some advantages, but not on a jury.

 

[Smooth60]

From the Charge to the Jurors.

"There is no dispute that Mr. Stanley was lawfully justified in the circumstances of this case to retrieve his handgun and fire it into the air as warning shots, if you find that this is what he did."

Ammo was from 1953! Gun 1947.

"There has been a lot of attention paid to the casing that was found on the dash of the grey Escape. It had an unusual bulge. Neither expert could say why this casing had an unusual bulge or what may have caused it. A properly seated cartridge would not be expected to create a bulge because it should be surrounded by the embedded pieces of the gun. "

"Although both experts did not know what caused the bulge both theorized that one possible explanation would be a hang fire or delayed reaction."

 

[wilbur]

All very reasoned, but after nine pages here and a whole lot of argy-bargy across the country it's clear that whatever justice was done, a very large part of the population couldn't see that it was done, and can' t put their trust in the result or the system.

I doubt anyone has the answer, but it is clear that a jury like that one, selected as that one was, cannot deliver a verdict that most people believe in. That's just one problem we need to fix.

Maybe a jury decision should be vetted through a popular poll. In fact, why don't we abolish the jury system altogether and have it like a talent show where people vote on a call-in line like America's Got Talent. This way, the majority would be satisfied. Then they could poll the sentence.

They tried that in Ghadaffi's Libyan Jamahariya by a show of hands, since their jury trials used the attendance itself as jury by a show of hands (like fists raised up while yelling 'Kill Him!'). They had to hire hundreds of Egyptian lawyers as magistrates to pass sentence after the People's Committee Courts did the convicting, because any conviction for any kind of offense would have otherwise resulted in the death penalty.... that's why you don't want popular sentiment to have anything to do with convicting people and passing their sentence.

 

[dickydoem]

Apparently the jury system only works when it delivers the verdict that you want.

 

[wilbur]

I would have voted to convict him.

Of course you would, because all white people are bad and all others are good.

It's turning out that this fellow and his associates were career hooligans, and associated with relatives involved in band politics who are totally corrupt, violent and squandering band funds, with rap sheets as long as the eye can see.

And our naive PM saying he's sorry for the result. People who live in that Province know what the deal is. I predict that the Liberals are going to get wiped out of Sask and probably Alberta as long as Little Potato stays at the head of the Liberal Party.

 

[SuperCharge]

Of course you would, because all white people are bad and all others are good.

It's turning out that this fellow and his associates were career hooligans, and associated with relatives involved in band politics who are totally corrupt, violent and squandering band funds, with rap sheets as long as the eye can see.

And our naive PM saying he's sorry for the result. People who live in that Province know what the deal is. I predict that the Liberals are going to get wiped out of Sask and probably Alberta as long as Little Potato stays at the head of the Liberal Party.

Amen Brother :encouragement:

 

[oldjones]

What most people believe, their feelings, are not important to the process of Justice.It is not important what MOST people believe about what transpired at trial or what MOST people [think] happened at the time. Juries are not supposed to take that into consideration at all.

Here is the Judges instructions to the Jurors, a long read, 90 minutes, but you will see there that the Judge has said explicitly that in his charge.

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada...n-boushie-jury-put-yourself-in-a-jurors-shoes

Thanks, but that's perhaps better directed to people trying to re-argue and second-guess the trial. I'm not. Nor was the PM.

And it's a grossly careless misreading to suggest anyone seriously thinks juries should consider the popular opinion of what transpired at trial, and a complete misrepresentation to suggest that's anything like my point or the PM's.

So I'll repeat: We have a problem if masses of people think the verdicts delivered by our justice system are unjust and prejudiced. Clear now?
-------

 

[Smooth60]

Thanks, but that's perhaps better directed to people trying to re-argue and second-guess the trial. I'm not. Nor was the PM.

And it's a grossly careless misreading to suggest anyone seriously thinks juries should consider the popular opinion of what transpired at trial, and a complete misrepresentation to suggest that's anything like my point or the PM's.

So I'll repeat: We have a problem if masses of people think the verdicts delivered by our justice system are unjust and prejudiced. Clear now?
-------

Clear.

The masses need to become educated on the process not alter the process to accommodate their feelings. Again, show me the evidence that supports their feelings and in those instances that Justice was perverted then remedy that specific case.

 

[KBear]

Here is the Judges instructions to the Jurors, a long read, 90 minutes, but you will see there that the Judge has said explicitly that in his charge.

http://nationalpost.com/news/canada...n-boushie-jury-put-yourself-in-a-jurors-shoes

Thanks for the link, interesting reading. Was thinking Stanley should have been charged with careless use of a firearm, as he did not keep the gun pointed away from people, but have to consider his mental state. Would be a tough call. Might give him a pass as he was put in a chaotic situation by others.

From the link:
You should consider all the circumstances including any personal characteristics of Mr. Stanley that deprived him of the capacity necessary to have the mental state of care required in the circumstances.
Careless use of a firearm involves conduct that shows a marked departure from the standard of care that a reasonably prudent person would exercise in the same circumstances.

 

[Smooth60]

Thanks for the link, interesting reading. Was thinking Stanley should have been charged with careless use of a firearm, as he did not keep the gun pointed away from people, but have to consider his mental state. Would be a tough call. Might give him a pass as he was in a chaotic situation and put in this position by others.

From the link:
You should consider all the circumstances including any personal characteristics of Mr. Stanley that deprived him of the capacity necessary to have the mental state of care required in the circumstances.
Careless use of a firearm involves conduct that shows a marked departure from the standard of care that a reasonably prudent person would exercise in the same circumstances.

Yep. From that Charge to the Jury and the evidence spoken about and testimony of witnesses he referred to as well as the interpretations that must be made on such I have no problem saying the Jury made the right decision. All the post verdict media incitement and 'populist' uprisings about it being race and need for a change is BS.

And that doesn't stop SelfieSockBoy from this shit.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-speech-indigenous-rights-1.4534679

 

[SuperCharge]

And that doesn't stop SelfieSockBoy from this shit.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-speech-indigenous-rights-1.4534679

Trudeau and the rest of the sock puppet party are trying to destroy any remaining credibility our justice system has, and turn it into an injustice system. By acting based on temporary emotion and virtue-signalling, the Trudeau government is putting our entire system of justice in serious peril.

Imagine if the system is changed and a similar situation happens, except the defence can’t challenge jurors who may be massively biased. People would be convicted even if that conviction is based on anger and bias, instead of facts.

Dangerous territory.

Justice Minister Jody Wilson-Raybould told reporters on Parliament Hill reforms are coming “very soon.”
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...fter-meeting-with-colten-boushies-family.html

​

 

[mandrill]

All very reasoned, but after nine pages here and a whole lot of argy-bargy across the country it's clear that whatever justice was done, a very large part of the population couldn't see that it was done, and can' t put their trust in the result or the system.

I doubt anyone has the answer, but it is clear that a jury like that one, selected as that one was, cannot deliver a verdict that most people believe in. That's just one problem we need to fix.

And most Black people believe George Zimmerman should have been convicted. Having heard an outline the evidence, I don't and he was acquitted. Most Black people believe that Michael Brown was murdered. Having heard an outline of the evidence, I don't and he was never indicted. See a pattern here?

It's easy to use criminal verdicts as political toys and to manipulate the public - most of whom could never follow the issues and evidence to begin with, without a lot of direction.

People are not going to have any faith in the justice system if they are continually fed bullshit in the media and by political leaders that it's bent. And those media outlets and politicians aren't going to stop making up bullshit about the justice system if they make money and / or gain power from doing so. See a pattern here?

Trump told his base that he couldn't get fair justice from a judge who had Hispanic antecedents. His base believed it. Trump told his base that the Federal Court were incompetent and corrupt when they over-turned his Muslim Ban and the base believes it to this day. See a pattern here?

So when they justice system has to go cap in hand to the public to justify itself is a Black Day in my opinion.

 

[Aardvark154]

Apparently the jury system only works when it delivers the verdict that you want.

Well at least according to the Minister of Justice and the Prime Minister.

 

[Aardvark154]

Heard today (CBC) that the Province of Saskatchewan is going to pay for an additional 30 RCMP constables to be assigned to patrol/crime prevention duties in the ranching section of the Province.

 

[frankcastle]

And most Black people believe George Zimmerman should have been convicted. Having heard an outline the evidence, I don't and he was acquitted. Most Black people believe that Michael Brown was murdered. Having heard an outline of the evidence, I don't and he was never indicted. See a pattern here?

It's easy to use criminal verdicts as political toys and to manipulate the public - most of whom could never follow the issues and evidence to begin with, without a lot of direction.

People are not going to have any faith in the justice system if they are continually fed bullshit in the media and by political leaders that it's bent. And those media outlets and politicians aren't going to stop making up bullshit about the justice system if they make money and / or gain power from doing so. See a pattern here?

Trump told his base that he couldn't get fair justice from a judge who had Hispanic antecedents. His base believed it. Trump told his base that the Federal Court were incompetent and corrupt when they over-turned his Muslim Ban and the base believes it to this day. See a pattern here?

So when they justice system has to go cap in hand to the public to justify itself is a Black Day in my opinion.

I think GZ was guilty of something as well.

One parallel with GZ and this case is that BOTH guys made bad choices in putting themselves into harms way. GZ kept following and ignored 911's instructions to back off. Stanely should not have approached 4 guys with his family in tow over an ATV. He was outnumbered and the guys were fucking with his ATV which suggests they are not too caring of the law.

In both cases if Trayvon and Couton did not die they too would face charges in my world.

When you enter a situation best left for police you are making a bad choice.

 

[frankcastle]

Think he is just charged with unsafe storage. The handgun should have been locked away, separate from the ammunition.

Fair enough. I don't feel the need to hang the guy. But I do think that on some level he has crossed a line and deserves some sort of punishment.

 

[mandrill]

I think GZ was guilty of something as well.

One parallel with GZ and this case is that BOTH guys made bad choices in putting themselves into harms way. GZ kept following and ignored 911's instructions to back off. Stanely should not have approached 4 guys with his family in tow over an ATV. He was outnumbered and the guys were fucking with his ATV which suggests they are not too caring of the law.

In both cases if Trayvon and Couton did not die they too would face charges in my world.

When you enter a situation best left for police you are making a bad choice.

But GZ was neighbourhood watch and had no idea that TM would try and ambush him. And Stanley was defending his property.

TM and Boushie died because they made choices which were even worse than Zimmerman and Stanley. TM was trying - arguably - to kill GZ. Boushie was invading Stanley's property.

 

[oldjones]

Clear.

The masses need to become educated on the process not alter the process to accommodate their feelings. Again, show me the evidence that supports their feelings and in those instances that Justice was perverted then remedy that specific case.

Unfortunately that amounts to making a repair after it damages someone. It would be best to rebuild the antiquated system so the damage is avoided and doesn't occur.

To head off any more crossed purposes, to me that 'system' begins with the police, ends with prisons and covers the courts in between. We sensibly avoided haste as we reluctantly volved that system, but what once was merely slow and thoughtful has become backward and stupid as the pace of change in society has accelerated year after year.

If we try for big fixes fast, we're quite likely to get them wrong in big ways, and were sure to have a sizeable bill even if we manage the improvements brilliantly. But doing nothing will only give us more unhappy results like this one. It's already a disappearing option.

 

[KBear]

From the Boushie's family point of view there is more to the issue than jury selection. Is a difficult and sad situation all around.

The long list of problems Colten Boushie's family says marred the case
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saska...y-list-problems-gerald-stanley-case-1.4532214