George Galloway 'beaten over Israel comments'
- Thread starter danmand
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Yes they did. They fired thousands is rockets at civilians. They abducted and murdered children. You are a hate driven fanatic in full denial of reality.This last round of slaughter they did not act as terrorists.
Adding on hate fueled propaganda in addition to their violent terrorism is not changing over. To change over they would actually have to renounce terrorism.And why don't you support them changing to non-violent means?
And disarm.To change over they would actually have to renounce terrorism.
If they aren't targeting civilians they aren't terrorists anymore, according to your definitions you have to prove they aimed their almost unaimable rockets at civilians, otherwise, according to you, you have to give them the benefit of the doubt. So go ahead and prove they aimed the rockets at civilians.Adding on hate fueled propaganda in addition to their violent terrorism is not changing over. To change over they would actually have to renounce terrorism.
And don't forget:
Before the slaughter started Hamas hadn't fired a single rocket since 2012, on a voluntary ceasefire.
They fired thousands of rockets at civilians you idiot fanatic. They kidnapped and murdered children. They launched rockets from hospitals and schools.If they aren't targeting civilians they aren't terrorists anymore
It doesn't get any more hard core terrorist than that!
I can think of something a lot worse. Bombing hospitals and schools used as shelters, killing 400 children.They fired thousands of rockets at civilians you idiot fanatic. They kidnapped and murdered children. They launched rockets from hospitals and schools.
It doesn't get any more hard core terrorist than that!
Article 19 of the Fourth Geneva Convention provides that hospitals lose their protections when "they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy." Such acts include "the use of a hospital as a shelter for able-bodied combatants or fugitives, as an arms or ammunition store, as a military observation post, or as a centre for liaison with fighting troops."I can think of something a lot worse. Bombing hospitals and schools used as shelters, killing 400 children.
The saddest thing about your post is you admit precisely what makes them a war crime.If they aren't targeting civilians they aren't terrorists anymore, according to your definitions you have to prove they aimed their almost unaimable rockets at civilians, otherwise, according to you, you have to give them the benefit of the doubt. So go ahead and prove they aimed the rockets at civilians.
....
Article 51(4) of the 1977 Additional Protocol I provides: “Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited.”
http://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v2_cha_chapter3_rule11
Sure, they killed what, 5 or 6 civilians including those teenagers who probably weren't even killed by Hamas anyways.They fired thousands of rockets at civilians you idiot fanatic. They kidnapped and murdered children. They launched rockets from hospitals and schools.
It doesn't get any more hard core terrorist than that!
And you don't think that killing 2000, killing 563 children, bombing hospitals, schools, homes, mosques and apartment buildings is worse?
We've already established that Israel uses the Dahiya Doctrine and commits state terrorism, so by all metrics Israel is is hundred times worse.
Hundreds.
Do you even believe what you post? I can't tell if you are so filled with hate you have no problem making up blatant lies or if you're just a troll.Sure, they killed what, 5 or 6 civilians including those teenagers who probably weren't even killed by Hamas anyways.
And you don't think that killing 2000, killing 563 children, bombing hospitals, schools, homes, mosques and apartment buildings is worse?
We've already established that Israel uses the Dahiya Doctrine and commits state terrorism, so by all metrics Israel is is hundred times worse.
Hundreds.
But it also says:Article 19 of the Fourth Geneva Convention provides that hospitals lose their protections when "they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy." Such acts include "the use of a hospital as a shelter for able-bodied combatants or fugitives, as an arms or ammunition store, as a military observation post, or as a centre for liaison with fighting troops."
And there is plenty of doubt about Israel's allegations.In case of doubt whether an object which is normally dedicated to civilian
purposes, such as a place of worship, a house or other dwelling or a school, is
being used to make an effective contribution to military action, it shall be
presumed not to be so used.
For instance, Israel faked video about rocket launches from hospitals.
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/...fying-destruction-of-a-hospital-was-from-2009A video distributed by the Israeli military in July suggesting that Palestinian fighters had fired from the Al Wafa Rehabilitation and Geriatric Hospital in Gaza City was not shot during the recent Israeli attack on Gaza, and both audio and video clips were manipulated to cover up the fact that they were from entirely different incidents, a Truthout investigation has revealed.
The video, released by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) on July 23, the same day Israeli airstrikes destroyed Al Wafa, was widely reported by pro-Israeli publications and websites as proving that the hospital was destroyed because Hamas had turned the hospital into a military facility. But the video clip showing apparent firing from an annex to the hospital was actually shot during Israel's 2008-09 "Operation Cast Lead," and the audio clip accompanying it was from an incident unrelated to Al Wafa.
The misleading video was only the last in a series of IDF dissimulations about Al Wafa hospital that included false claims that Hamas rockets had been launched from the hospital grounds, or very near it, and that the hospital had been damaged by an attack on the launching site.
The IDF began to prepare the ground for the destruction of Al Wafa hospital well before Israeli ground troops entered Gaza on July 17. On July 11, the IDF fired four warning rockets on the fourth floor of Al Wafa, making a large hole in the ceiling - the standard IDF signal that a building was going to be destroyed by an airstrike.
On July 17, the hospital was hit by a total of 15 rockets, according to Dr. Basman Alashi, Al Wafa's director. After the first few rockets, a phone call from the IDF "asked how much time do you need to evacuate?" he told Truthout. After the second and third floors were largely destroyed, the patients' rooms were filled with smoke and the hospital lost electricity, he gave the order to evacuate the hospital.
An IDF spokesman told Allison Deger of Mondoweiss that Hamas rocket launches had come "from exactly near the hospital, 100 meters near." A slide show released by the IDF August 19 includes an aerial view of Al Wafa Hospital with two alleged rocket launching sites marked that are clearly much farther from the hospital than the 100 meters.
Even if that IDF claim of 100 meters were accurate, however, it was more than sufficient to allow the IDF to hit the launch site with precision-guided munitions without damaging the hospital. Israeli air to ground missiles, especially those fired from drones, are known to be able to hit small targets without causing collateral damage to nearby buildings. An IDF video posted on August 9, for example, shows a missile destroying what is said to be a hidden rocket launch site without harming a mosque only a few meters away from the explosion.
IDF spokesman Captain Eytan Buchman nevertheless blandly suggested that it was collateral damage from striking the launch site. He said the IDF was "left with no choice" but to "target the launcher with the most precise munitions capable of ensuring its destruction."
On July 21, the IDF Spokesman's Office pushed its propaganda line linking Al Wafa and rocket launching sites even further, claiming in a tweet and on its blog, "Hamas fires rockets from Wafa hospital in the Gaza neighborhood of Shujaiya." Under that headline was an aerial photo enhanced to highlight what was said to be Al Wafa Hospital, along with a red dot representing an M-75 rocket launch site that was not on the hospital grounds, but appeared to be a few meters away.
But the building shown in the aerial photo was not Al Wafa hospital, as Dr. Alashi quickly pointed out. A Google map of Al Wafa hospital shows none of the buildings resemble the one the IDF identified as Al Wafa. The building in the IDF image belongs to the Right to Life Society.
After that prevarication had been revealed, the IDF added a new claim that "the hospital grounds" had been used by Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad as "a post enabling terrorists to open fire at soldiers."
The IDF said that Hamas had "fired at Israel and at IDF forces from the hospital" despite warnings from the IDF, and the IDF had been forced to attack targets on the hospital site.
The statement was accompanied by a video purporting to document the firing at Israeli troops. Based on the camera angle and altitude, the video was taken by an Israeli drone, according to a former US intelligence officer, with experience in interpreting military-related images, who analyzed the video for Truthout.
The first segment of the video is a grainy, black-and-white aerial shot of a building that starts with the legend, "Terrorists Threaten IDF from inside Wafa Hospital." The building shown is not Al Wafa hospital, however, but an annex to the hospital that had been empty, both Dr. Alashi and Charlie Andeasson, a Swedish activist who was in the hospital when it was attacked on July 16, told Truthout.
The eight-second video shows what could be two brief bursts of fire from one of the windows on the third floor and then a third flash in a fourth story window. The former US intelligence officer confirmed that the footage of the building was selected from two different times of day. After the first three seconds of the video, the camera angle and the amount of light both change perceptibly.
Nevertheless an exchange between the two voices on the audiotape accompanying the video continues as though the scene were continuous during the entire eight seconds.
The first voice heard on the audio recording says, in Hebrew, "Do you see this firing? Have spotted fires from within the house." The English subtitles accompanying the audio add "hospital" in parentheses after the word "house," but Seattle-based blogger on Israeli affairs Richard Silverstein, who speaks Hebrew, confirmed to Truthout after listening to the audio clip that the speaker uses the word "bayit," which can only mean "house."
A second voice then says, according to the subtitles, "Positive, fire from within the house." But the speaker actually uses the term "small house" ("bayit ha katan hazeh"), according to Silverstein.
Those references to firing from a small house indicate that the audio clip was taken from an entirely different incident at another location. That device was obviously used because there was no audio of an incident involving firing from the hospital.
Dr. Alashi said he believes the eight-second video clip portrays firing from the annex that occurred in the 2008-09 Israeli attack on Gaza. "People confirmed to me that there was firing from the building then," he told Truthout. That building was, in fact, attacked on January 16, 2009, by Israeli tanks only 70 meters away from the hospital, damaging the third and fourth floors of the building - the very floors from which the flashes are shown in the video - as the UN Fact-Finding Mission noted in its September 2009 report.
The last segment of the video showing the bombing of the Al Wafa hospital, bears the legend "secondary explosion" - meaning explosions of weapons - as each building is shown being destroyed, in line with the Israeli argument throughout the operation that Hamas stored rockets and other weapons in hospitals, schools and mosques.
The video fist shows the hospital itself being blown up, followed by heavy billowing smoke covering the entire hospital and then another flash of fire. But the former intelligence official who viewed
the video said that flash indicated another Israeli missile strike on the target rather than a secondary explosion.
The clip then cuts to the destruction of the annex, again with the "secondary explosion" legend. The billowing smoke from the initial bomb explosion covers the building, and then two or three small puffs of darker smoke appear. Those puffs of smoke would suggest a secondary explosion, according to the former US intelligence officer. But he also observed that a hospital would have flammable materials other than hidden weapons that could cause the darker smoke to appear.
Given the existence of Hamas' complex network of tunnels, which provided plenty of storage space for its rockets and other weaponry, it would have made no sense for Hamas to store rockets in a hospital that it knew had already been targeted by the IDF.
In its final seconds, the video focuses in to show a square which the legend describes as a “tunnel opening near Al Wafa.” But Dr. Alashi told Truthout that it is actually a water well.
The IDF real reason for the destruction of Al Wafa hospital appears to be related to the determination to raise the cost to the civilian population of Gaza for Palestinian resistance, in line with the approach represented by its "Dahiya doctrine," named after the Beirut suburb dominated by Hezbollah, much of which the Israeli Air Force reduced to rubble in the 2006 war.
That strategy, recognized as a violation of the international laws of war, was pursued most obviously in the complete destruction of every house in several square blocks in three separate areas of the Shujaiya district of Gaza City July 19-20. But it was also evident in IDF attacks on Al Wafa and in the series of mortar and artillery attacks on six different UN shelters from July 21 though August 3. Those attacks killed a total of 47 civilians and wounded 341, according to a survey of the incidents by The Guardian.
In none of the six cases where UN shelters were hit by IDF mortar shells was the military able to offer a plausible explanation, and in three cases, it offered no explanation whatever.
Truth-out is a source?But it also says:
And there is plenty of doubt about Israel's allegations.
For instance, Israel faked video about rocket launches from hospitals.
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/...fying-destruction-of-a-hospital-was-from-2009
Next thing grog is going to deny that Hamas headquarters was in a hospital.
There is no doubt that Hamas is a Jew-hating terrorist organization.And there is plenty of doubt about Israel's allegations.
So you're abandoning all other claims and now basing your case on the point that Hamas is upset at Palestinians being forced to live in an open air prison?There is no doubt that Hamas is a Jew-hating terrorist organization.
Firing thousands of rockets at civilians is hard core terrorism. You think it is somehow OK because Israel thwarted most of their attacks?Sure, they killed what, 5 or 6 civilians including those teenagers who probably weren't even killed by Hamas anyways.
Pathetic.
Every single rocket fired by Hamas is one count of attempted murder, justified by you.
And there is no doubt that Hamas perpetrated the attack, not only have multiple Hamas leaders confirmed it, they praised it.
You are just doing your stupid clown dance trying to deny blatantly obvious facts. You will lie about anything and you clearly openly support terrorism and attacks on civilians.
Another of grog's pathetic attempts to whitewash Hamas.So you're abandoning all other claims and now basing your case on the point that Hamas is upset at Palestinians being forced to live in an open air prison?
Sure, and that's why both sides should be charged at the ICC and brought to justice.Firing thousands of rockets at civilians is hard core terrorism. You think it is somehow OK because Israel thwarted most of their attacks?
Though your claims of terrorism against Hamas fall by two of your own standards: a) you have shown no proof they targeted civilians and b) according to your logic if Hamas believes that settlers are militants its not terrorism, just faulty intel.
The main difference is that Israel was way more effective at state terrorism since its so much more heavily armed.
Why do you still refuse to support bringing in the ICC to charge both sides?
Yes, we all see how wonderfully that has worked in the case of President al-Bashi of Sudan.Sure, and that's why both sides should be charged at the ICC and brought to justice.
Thank you for acknowledging that Hamas are hard core terrorists. By the way there is lots of proof that Hamas target civilians: they say they do. Frequently.Sure
