Gas-Powered Cars Will Vanish in 8 Years, Big Oil Will Collapse: Stanford Study

FAST

Banned
Mar 12, 2004
10,064
1
0
What happens if it sits in below freezing temps, additionally I read that once it reaches a certain [cold] temp it won't even charge?
The lithium batter chemistry has definite temperature limitations, both low, and high, as has been experienced with Leafs in California, and those are permanent degradations.

Of coarse you will be told you have to have the battery constantly on charge if low temperature are expected, which would be a minor problem when left at an airport while on vacation.
 

George The Curious

Active member
Nov 28, 2011
2,007
9
38
The lithium batter chemistry has definite temperature limitations, both low, and high, as has been experienced with Leafs in California, and those are permanent degradations.

Of coarse you will be told you have to have the battery constantly on charge if low temperature are expected, which would be a minor problem when left at an airport while on vacation.
I don't park at airport for extended time even with gas car. I admit I rarely travel, but when I had to for 1 month. I took taxi to airport, and let my friend babysit my BMW. I asked her to drive around block once a week. You know it's not good to park any car for extended time. Your lead acid batter will drain as well, and not good for tire, and all the fluids - engine oil, coolant, transmission, differential fluids will degrade if not regularly circulated.
 

The "Bone" Ranger

tits lover
Aug 5, 2006
4,195
32
48
Of coarse you will be told you have to have the battery constantly on charge if low temperature are expected, which would be a minor problem when left at an airport while on vacation.
I can't be working for the car, I am open to technology but it needs to provide me a product that matches up with the status quo at the very minimum, let alone require any form of babysitting.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
104,009
30,045
113
In China....

China announced on Thursday (28 September) it would start phasing out fossil fuel cars and set a 10% minimum quota of “new energy vehicles” in 2019, in a move European industry groups called a game changer and a wake-up call for Europe.

China, the world’s largest car market, has set the 2019 “new energy vehicles” sales quota for automakers at 10% of their annual vehicle sales for that year. In 2020, the quota will rise to 12% of annual sales.
http://www.euractiv.com/section/ele...rther-promote-evs-putting-pressure-on-europe/
 

oil&gas

Well-known member
Apr 16, 2002
15,688
2,816
113
Ghawar
Are these "new energy vehicles" going to be mostly
made-in-China EVs by 2020? It will be great to have
some dirt cheap alternatives to Tesla.
 

George The Curious

Active member
Nov 28, 2011
2,007
9
38
Are these "new energy vehicles" going to be mostly
made-in-China EVs by 2020? It will be great to have
some dirt cheap alternatives to Tesla.
Almost half of the cost in EV is in lithium ion battery. It is possible Chinese manufacturing prowess proves itself capable of applying Moore's law on batteries.
 

Occasionally

Active member
May 22, 2011
2,926
8
38
Almost half of the cost in EV is in lithium ion battery. It is possible Chinese manufacturing prowess proves itself capable of applying Moore's law on batteries.
If China is going to fully invest in their own battery car industry, no doubt prices will fall like a rock..... for Chinese branded cars. The rest of the world doesn't care about Chinese cars, so threy will be paying NA/Euro/Jap prices.

If there's one thing about Chinese manufacturing, they can always churn out decent stuff at incredible prices. Not saying they make "the best stuff", but for respectable quality at great prices, China has it. And that's even after they mess with shipping the stuff across the Pacific.
 

FAST

Banned
Mar 12, 2004
10,064
1
0
I don't park at airport for extended time even with gas car. I admit I rarely travel, but when I had to for 1 month. I took taxi to airport, and let my friend babysit my BMW. I asked her to drive around block once a week. You know it's not good to park any car for extended time. Your lead acid batter will drain as well, and not good for tire, and all the fluids - engine oil, coolant, transmission, differential fluids will degrade if not regularly circulated.
Lots of people leave their cars out side unattended for a month in the winter, with no ill effects.

As far as your BMW, it would have had synthetic oil, plus, driving it around the block, is the worst possible thing to do, much better off leaving it be.

If the vehicle is not being used, there is absolutely no need to circulate the fluids, we don't use castor oil anymore.

Even if the lead acid battery was to run down, jumper cables, and a way you go,... not $40,000 dollars later.

And believe it or not, the tires on an EV are exactly the same as on an ICE vehicle, although with almost double the weight of an EV, won't be lasting no where's near as long.
 

FAST

Banned
Mar 12, 2004
10,064
1
0
Almost half of the cost in EV is in lithium ion battery. It is possible Chinese manufacturing prowess proves itself capable of applying Moore's law on batteries.
There is no "Chinese manufacturing prowess",... but simply extremely low wages,... and what would be illegal working conditions in just about any other country.

Anything that is done there, can, and is done elsewhere, but at a much higher cost.

And Moore's law is regarding transistor density, I don't think there is a lot of transistors in a lithium battery, it simply boils down to manufacturing costs.

There is no incentive to develop manufacturing processes, if the manufacturing location is not cost competitive, so the manufacturing of consumer goods will be done in 3rd world countries.
 

George The Curious

Active member
Nov 28, 2011
2,007
9
38
There is no "Chinese manufacturing prowess",... but simply extremely low wages,... and what would be illegal working conditions in just about any other country.

Anything that is done there, can, and is done elsewhere, but at a much higher cost.

And Moore's law is regarding transistor density, I don't think there is a lot of transistors in a lithium battery, it simply boils down to manufacturing costs.

There is no incentive to develop manufacturing processes, if the manufacturing location is not cost competitive, so the manufacturing of consumer goods will be done in 3rd world countries.
There are many other 3rd world countries that failed at manufacturing industries comparing to Chinese. I don't think it's just about extreme low wages. I think it has more to do with culture of hard working and obedience.
There are lower wage countries than China, India, Bangladesh, Thailand, most of Africa. They can't produce quality goods like China. Just because you pay someone more, doesn't mean he will do better job even in the 1st world countries. Americans auto workers have higher wage than Germans, but German cars are superior to American cars. Most of American auto-workers don't have the same kind of career dedication as Germans.
 

Phil C. McNasty

Go Jays Go
Dec 27, 2010
29,850
7,470
113
China can make good products, but they are ordered by North-American companies to make shitty products so they break down easy, and a year later you have to buy new stuff. And since 90% of all goods are made in China you have no choice but to keep buying their shitty stuff
 

GameBoy27

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2004
13,027
3,076
113
Okay, I multiple $2800, heck, let's round it up to 3000 x 6, and x 8 (8 gas pumps per station) = $144,000 - WAY WAY cheaper than $2 million cost to build gas station.
Charging standards will be unified soon, just as fuel standards - in early days, there was leaded, unleaded, different grades of gasoline. over time standards and quality of gasoline was unified.
Here's the problem with your theory. I had a feeling and previously commented on how it seems impractical to simply replace gas pumps with charging stations along the 401. I'm glad I found someone who took the time to explain what I thought all along.

Motor Mouth: More inconvenient truths on banning gas engines

Anyone who tells you that the electric car in your future will be just as convenient as the gasoline-fueled vehicle you’re currently driving is lying. If not overtly, then at least by omission. Nor can they plead ignorance, the calculations required to reach this conclusion hardly the stuff of graduate-level physics. Indeed, judging from the experts I’ve spoken with, plenty have been the warnings proffered to the politicians, policy makers and futurists advocating an all-battery-powered future.

Now before you go all Tesla on me and start putting angry pen to paper, let me give credit where credit is due. In an emissions-free automotive world, the electric vehicle is king of the inner-city commute: the ability to recharge at home — during off-hours, minimizing the load on our grids — is convenient, their torquey motors perfect for the point and shoot of inner-city traffic, and their range more than what is needed by 90 per cent of commuters. I also trust that battery technology will get lighter and more energy dense so the 100+ kilowatt-hour batteries of the future won’t all weigh a thousand pounds. Nor is the tired old bugbear — “all that electricity is being generated by coal” — likely to be a problem in 20 or 30 years, the cost of renewables hopefully coming down to a manageable level.

Instead, the problem for our all-electric future (now California is said to be following France and England’s banning of the internal combustion engine) is power transmission. More specifically, as one industry expert summed up the situation, “the bottleneck [clouding the future of the electric vehicle] is local distribution.” That bottleneck is going to be the highway service stations that will be required to service our 300 million now-electric cars for longer trips when we don’t have access to the convenience of our home chargers.

Consider the following scenario: last Labour Day weekend, like so many holiday weekends, pretty much every fuel pump on the side of Ontario’s 401 was, er, pumping non-stop. That, for anyone thinking of following along with my calculus, is a station every 80 kilometres, each with up to 16 pumps. More importantly, each of those is capable of pumping about 30 litres of gasoline in a minute. In other words, discounting credit card transaction and unscrewing of gas cap, even the most ardent gas-guzzler can take in enough fossil fuel for 500 kilometres of driving in about two minutes.

But consider this: an EV that can guarantee 500 klicks requires at least 100 kilowatt-hours of battery. Do the math and a similar two-minute recharge would require three megawatts. That, for those who don’t have an electrical engineering degree, is 3,000 kilowatts.

Now for some perspective: current fast chargers boast about 50kW. Yes, essentially 1/60th of the charging capacity required to match the refueling rate of an everyday gas-powered car. If you’re reaching for your calculator, I’ll save you the trouble: Serving the same number of cars could theoretically require as many as 960 charging stations (and they’d still have to sit there for two hours to fully charge).

But isn’t Porsche promising a 20-minute charge for 400 kilometres of range, you ask? Doesn’t that mean we’ll soon see EVs capable of matching those two-minute recharges?

Well, yes, Porsche is making just such a promise. Unfortunately, however, that would seem to be the practical limit of how fast we’re going to be able to recharge these electrical behemoths. Indeed, The 350kW rechargers required for those promised 20-minute refueling is, according to the experts I spoke with, likely the upper limit of the equipment we humans will ever be allowed to handle. In fact, these 350kW rechargers generate so much heat, their amperage is so incredibly high, that the cables carrying all that current need to be liquid cooled. And anything that can recharge our batteries faster than 20 minutes will have to be automated, i.e., phantasmagorically expensive.

How expensive? As I mentioned, you’ll need about 60 50kW rechargers to replace one fuel pump; about eight of the 350kW variety for every pump. That, as I mentioned, would mean 960 of the low-powered 50kW units at each rest stop and 128 of the high-tech 350kW versions. Have I mentioned that even those low-powered 50kW fast chargers cost about $40,000 apiece? One of those faster-charging 350kW items? About two hundred large. Faster-charging automated versions would cost upward of a half-million each.

Even a more conservative estimate taxes one’s calculator. Factoring in the aforementioned credit card transaction and washing of windshield that might extend gasoline refueling to five minutes, it would still require 600 of those 50kW chargers for a roadside station to service the 2,000 cars those gas pumps could service in a busy 12-hour period. Even that conservative estimate would require a $24-million investment just for the cheapest rechargers.

They’d also need about 30 megawatts of power. For those thinking that’s a sh%$-load of electricity, you’re right. Thirty megawatts, for perspective, is enough to power about 20,000 homes. In other words, powering these service stations of the future will require about the same amount of electricity as a city of 75,000. Oh, and by the way, all that electricity, unlike off-hour home recharging, happens during peak-usage daylight hours.

In other words, all that extra power, at least for intra-city travel, will have to come from new — not existing — sources. At the most optimistic prices posited for the future cost of solar panels — about a buck a watt — that’s another $30 million. If you want to go the windmill route, you’ll need 10 of them, each costing roughly $4 million. Just as further reminder, that’s for each and every roadside station. And for those thinking there may be some breakthrough in the future that will allow faster recharging, know that while battery technology is in its infancy, electricity generation is a mature technology and the laws of power transmission are likely to remain pretty much immutable.

Lastly, I’d like to mention that so outrageous were the numbers these calculations generated I felt obliged to contact numerous experts in the field to check my calculus. To a person, these experts — infrastructure engineers, EV prototype designers and the heads of entire EV programs — didn’t know how, indeed if, the problem of recharging an entire fleet of battery-powered cars could be solved. Most said that some form of range extension would be a far more practical solution.

So I will ask the same question I raised in the first part of this inconvenient truth series: If we can reduce 75 per cent of greenhouse gas emissions by banning gasoline in urban centres, but allowing internal combusting for inter-city travel (as is possible today with extended-range EVs), why, again, are we going through the trials and tribulations of rebuilding a refueling infrastructure that already serves us so well?

http://driving.ca/auto-news/news/motor-mouth-more-inconvenient-truths-on-banning-gas-engines
 

oil&gas

Well-known member
Apr 16, 2002
15,688
2,816
113
Ghawar
We can always switch to non-electric power for
cooking and air conditioning. That should free up
sufficient electricity to convert a large proportion of
in-city ICE traffic to EVs.
 

Occasionally

Active member
May 22, 2011
2,926
8
38
Here's the problem with your theory. I had a feeling and previously commented on how it seems impractical to simply replace gas pumps with charging stations along the 401. I'm glad I found someone who took the time to explain what I thought all along.
But according to George, a charging stand is only $3,000!
 

lomotil

Well-known member
Mar 14, 2004
6,973
1,833
113
Oblivion
In any case, the innovations and infrastructure capable of supporting electric vehicles will not makes its first appearance in Canada anyway. Another country will do it first, say a country like Japan for example which must import every drop of their oil and is able to engineer ultra brilliant transportation systems like the Shinkansen (aka Bullet Train) which straddles a very mountainous, earthquake prone terrain. Ontario struggles with implementation and infrastructure with projects like the Gas Plant fiasco and even the Metrolinks project currently, so I would not expect a successful and unique implementation of any system replacing Gas-powered vehicles around here any time soon.
 
Toronto Escorts