Garbage Strike - Give Me a Break

Mrbig1949

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The Union IS the members

train said:
So in our wisdom we have legally mandated all the suckers, er employees, pay off the union and the union doesn't have to publically account for how its spends the money. Sweet. Nice racket. Did I mention tax free?
You dorks seem to make this juvenile distinction between the union and the workers. The union IS the workers. It is the expression of their democratic solidarity. They create the union, they elect its officers they go to conventions to hold it accountable and to give it direction. They need to win elections to go to convention. The leaders are ELECTED by the members.The union is the chosen instrument of the workers.

Watch Norma Rae. Best movie about how is really is.
 

train

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buckwheat1 said:
The union is like private company and it files taxes to revenue Canada like any other private company. Any extra money not spent at year end gets turned back into teh strike fund or what is called eserve funds so that when there is a strike they have the funds to pay the striker. Mnay unions are considered non profit and that's because the extra money is put into those reserve funds, it's kind of like insurance companies they have to have so much money on hand to pay out claims when they come in.
You are wrong as usual. Has CUPE, for example or the CAW ever paid taxes? The reserve(slush) fund is exactly how all the gullible members get fooled if they even see a financial statement.

The last time unions had to publically file financial statements in Canada was in the mid '90's. It was embarrassing because they showed that only 17% of the funds collected the Steelworkers was ever spent on the members for services provided or strike pay. There were even payments to the Steelworkers in the US. How do I know ? Diane Francis published all this in the Financial Post back then and I posted a copy of it on the bulletin board in our plant.
Needless to say the Steelworkers lost the certification vote.
 

train

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Mrbig1949 said:
The union IS the workers. It is the expression of their democratic solidarity. They create the union, they elect its officers they go to conventions to hold it accountable and to give it direction. They need to win elections to go to convention. The leaders are ELECTED by the members.The union is the chosen instrument of the workers.

Watch Norma Rae. Best movie about how is really is.
You really are that dumb? Hard to believe you buy all the union rhetoric hook line and sinker. Thanks for the movie reference ....'cause that's reality:rolleyes:

How about watching the Hoffa movie ?
 

buckwheat1

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I have seen many a union balance sheet and know here the money is being spent
legal, bargaining, travel, wages (staff) reserve fund ect. I also know that they have auditors check teh books and file tax returns now as to weather they have to pay taxes I don't know or care, I know they are classed as non profit.
 

oldjones

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train said:
You are wrong as usual. Has CUPE, for example or the CAW ever paid taxes? The reserve(slush) fund is exactly how all the gullible members get fooled if they even see a financial statement.

The last time unions had to publically file financial statements in Canada was in the mid '90's. It was embarrassing because they showed that only 17% of the funds collected the Steelworkers was ever spent on the members for services provided or strike pay. There were even payments to the Steelworkers in the US. How do I know ? Diane Francis published all this in the Financial Post back then and I posted a copy of it on the bulletin board in our plant.
Needless to say the Steelworkers lost the certification vote.
And the GM shareholder's who got all those glossily printed financials were fully informed about the company's getting and spending, weren't they? As non-profits unions file financials by law just as public corporations do. Which Ms. Francis depended on. Tell me how we get financials from private companies. No such thing as a private union.

In spite of the prejudices filling these threads, there's nothing special about unions or companies that makes them, or their managers bad. They're both just mechanisms for collecting the power of many individuals into one entity. Neither is inherently virtuous or by definition managed by saints, simpletons or sinners. But it's way easier to sneer at a guy heaving garbage cans, and those who bargain for him than at the guys in the suits you can't afford who sign your cheques and gave away all those benefits isn't it?
 

buckwheat1

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as for GM is was very clear in the press they were losing billions yearly, the question is how much can a company lose? One cannot get private info and it should be that way.
 

train

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oldjones said:
And the GM shareholder's who got all those glossily printed financials were fully informed about the company's getting and spending, weren't they?
They were actually. Why do you ask, can't you read financial statements ?

As non-profits unions file financials by law just as public corporations do.
They are not available to the public

Tell me how we get financials from private companies.
Private companies are not legislated to collect money from you. You also have a choice of companies with which to do business with. City of Toronto garbage collectors have no such freedom of choice.

But it's way easier to sneer at a guy heaving garbage cans, and those who bargain for him than at the guys in the suits you can't afford who sign your cheques and gave away all those benefits isn't it?
You obviously haven't been keeping up with the news. A significant number of Toronto City Councillors received substantial political donations from CUPE. I don't know whether they wear suits or not but yes, everyone should be snearing at this conflict of interest. It borders on out and corruption orchestrated by CUPE.

So in this case you are wrong again, its far easier to sneer at the guys wearing the suits.
 

Mrbig1949

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Workers have a choice in what union represents them. Unions compete for this, a vote is held and their is a decert. process that can move them from one union to another.
 

train

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Mrbig1949 said:
Workers have a choice in what union represents them. Unions compete for this, a vote is held and their is a decert. process that can move them from one union to another.
So you are saying that if I wanted to work for GM I have a choice of which union I join. I think not. Your either don't have the foggiest idea of what you are talking about or you are being deliberately misleading. There is no choice for new employees. There is also no choice for existing employees unless you decertify the existing union. Just try doing that on your own coin without having your legs broken.

One choice is made at the very beginning, the original certification and it last until either decertification or until the company ceases to exist. I doubt very much whether anyone who voted for the original certification of the UAW/CAW at GM is still working there. Same probably holds true for the City of Toronto.

The truth is that its a monopoly with little accountability.
 

someone

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I think this article does a good job of illustrating just how out of touch the public sector has become. BTW, although I knew unionization was on the decline, even I was a bit surprised that only 16% of private sector workers are unionized.

"Downturn brings new bargaining tactic: Do nothing
Tavia Grant
Globe and Mail Update Last updated on Wednesday, Jul. 08, 2009 10:20AM EDT
Wage freezes for government employees. Pay cuts for auto workers. Municipal workers on the picket line.
The recession, on top of global competition and the shift to part-time, casual contract work, is creating the toughest year for the labour movement in decades.
Yet behind the headlines of strife and strike lies a much more complex picture. For one thing, strikes remain the exception rather than the norm. For another, many employers and their staff are finding new ways to cope in a downturn that has left everyone gasping, say lawyers, union leaders and academics.
Rather than run the risk of a dispute, many companies and unions are doing nothing – letting existing contracts run their course and putting negotiating on hold, a development previously unheard of, even for long-time labour lawyer Stewart Saxe.
“I've been in this business for 30 years, through other recessions, and I've not seen anything like this before,” said Mr. Saxe, Toronto-based partner at Baker & McKenzie LLP.
He estimates that 25 per cent of the employers he represents should be in contract talks right now, but aren't.
It's easy to see why: Neither side wants to run the risk of a labour dispute when the economic outlook is murky. No one wants a strike. So companies and workers either let the current contract run its course, or just try to extend it – as Air Canada is proposing to do. Last month, outside municipal workers in London, Ont., extended their collective agreement by two years, with some wage increases.
It's a short-term coping mechanism, but “prudent,” Mr. Saxe said. Unions realize their old contract is probably better than any new one; employers don't want to risk a workplace disruption and the hit to morale that negotiating in a hostile economic environment could bring.
So they're putting off tough talks for another day.
“Keeping what they have looks pretty good in some circumstances,” said Israel Chafetz, partner and labour and employment lawyer at Vancouver-based Taylor Jordan Chafetz.
And while it might look like 2009 is the summer of the strike – Toronto and Windsor, Ont., municipal workers are off the job, as are B.C. paramedics and social service workers in Ontario's Lanark county – the reality is that recessions tend to result in fewer, not more, strikes.
Both work stoppages and days lost to work stoppages have plunged in recent years, Statistics Canada figures show. So far this year, there have been eight major work stoppages, according to Human Resources and Skills Development Canada's most recent bulletin, not including the high-profile strike by City of Toronto workers.
The waning number of strikes “is a sign of union weakness, rather than strength,” said Larry Savage, an associate professor who specializes in labour at Ontario's Brock University.
“Historically, unions won their hard-fought gains through conflict rather than co-operation. What we're seeing now in some sectors [where unions are agreeing to freeze wages and working conditions] is therefore a sign of labour weakness.”
Declining union membership is also eroding workers' bargaining clout. In 1988, almost 40 per cent of Canada's work force was unionized. Last year, it stood at 29.4 per cent, down from 29.7 per cent in 2007, according to Statscan. In the private sector, it's just 16.3 per cent.
“Employers are using this climate to get back as many things as they can,” said Pradeep Kumar, professor emeritus at Queen's University in Kingston, who has examined labour relations for the past 40 years. Many agreements, for example, include multiyear wage freezes, cuts to benefits or longer working hours.
Ken Neumann, national director of the United Steelworkers who is trying to secure a new deal for 3,300 Vale Inco workers in Sudbury, calls the current bargaining climate “the worst I've seen in 30 years.”
Even in this environment, however, unionized workers are still managing wage gains. Major collective bargaining settlements reached in April show average increases of 2.6 per cent a year – a decline from deals that were reached in February and March, but increases nonetheless. Unionized workers tend to earn more than their non-unionized counterparts.
In some cases, both sides are bending. In March, courier and logistics company DHL Express (Canada) Ltd. and the Canadian Auto Workers signed a new agreement that will cover about 2,400 workers. Employees got a wage increase, along with improved severance pay. In return, DHL got more flexibility to schedule employees as needed.
“We now have the easier ability to re-map and re-route driver routes,” which is helping the company run express service deliveries, said vice-president Andrew Williams. “Both sides recognized times were tough, but we knew it was necessary to get a deal put together.”
Sharing in company ownership is another key labour development – notably in the auto sector, where unionized workers are swallowing concessions in exchange for a partial share in the business.
A broad shift to employees as owner-operators, in areas such as trucking and repair businesses, “is the most interesting development I'm seeing,” Mr. Chafetz says. “It changes the incentives.”
Organized labour is at a crossroads, says Prof. Savage. On one hand, new ownership at some of the world's largest car companies is giving trade unions a new voice. On the other hand, unions may be forced to give up gains this year that had taken decades to achieve.
“Ultimately unions need to take responsibility for their own futures by building their members' capacities to defend their interests and promote their particular vision for society, independent of employers or politicians,” Prof. Savage says." http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...-bargaining-tactic-do-nothing/article1209819/
 

buckwheat1

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Why is TRAIN worreid about something he doesn't believe in or belong to, the union is it's membership. The union is only accountable to it's membership and if their please then all is well, move on and get over it.
 

Rockslinger

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buckwheat1 said:
Why is TRAIN worreid about something he doesn't believe in or belong to, the union is it's membership.
Train is worried and should be worried because it is his (and my) tax dollars that are funding public sector unions. The private sector can exist without public sector unions. But, public sector unions cannot exist without extorting tax dollars from the private sector. Remember who is the parasite and who is the host.

If the garbage collectors are not happy and don't want to work, then they should quit and try to get a job in the real world. They are not slaves, they are free to leave:( . Go already.
 

buckwheat1

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why is it tax payers money? Your tax payers money pays their wages/benefits. Once it leaves that point any money the employee decides to give to anyone is no longer the tax payers money. EG: Once your emplyeer pays you and you decide to say give 10% of your salary to charity
who owns that 10% you or your employeer. There are many non public companies that are unionized. The garbage man is also free to join a union which bargins for the membership. this is a legal strike. I wish they'd go to arbitration but teh city won't ask for that, they'd lose big time!!!!
 

blackrock13

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buckwheat1 said:
why is it tax payers money? Your tax payers money pays their wages/benefits. Once it leaves that point any money the employee decides to give to anyone is no longer the tax payers money. EG: Once your emplyeer pays you and you decide to say give 10% of your salary to charity
who owns that 10% you or your employeer. There are many non public companies that are unionized. The garbage man is also free to join a union which bargins for the membership. this is a legal strike. I wish they'd go to arbitration but teh city won't ask for that, they'd lose big time!!!!
Give your head a shake Jack.


It's public money because without the taxes collected by the city, you don't have a pool of money to be paid from. Yes there are middlemen who manage this money and decide how it's to be allocated but it's tax money, public tax money, that pays your salary.

You make this ludicrous statement on top of one that you've seen many union balance sheets and everything is fine and on the up and up because there are auditors and accountants keeping an eye on this, so it has to be. To you credit you didn't claim to understand the balance sheets but only you've seen many.

I'm sure that Madoff and Enron had audits done and accountants doing their books but look what was going on there. The accounting firm, Arthur Anderson, a very highly respected company, changed their name shortly afterwards to get the Enron stink of their dirty laundry.
 

Mrbig1949

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Decert votes

train said:
So you are saying that if I wanted to work for GM I have a choice of which union I join. I think not. Your either don't have the foggiest idea of what you are talking about or you are being deliberately misleading. There is no choice for new employees. There is also no choice for existing employees unless you decertify the existing union. Just try doing that on your own coin without having your legs broken.

One choice is made at the very beginning, the original certification and it last until either decertification or until the company ceases to exist. I doubt very much whether anyone who voted for the original certification of the UAW/CAW at GM is still working there. Same probably holds true for the City of Toronto.

The truth is that its a monopoly with little accountability.
There are many decert votes and votes for new unions in Ontario every year. I know, I have conducted the votes.
 

Mrbig1949

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What makes me laugh is this "sudden discovery" that their are unions in the ps or that they have "sick days" OMFG, this has been the case for decades and will be for many more. You are so far out in right wing loonie land that Randy Hillier (goverment electrician BTW) is on your left.
 

Rockslinger

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Mrbig1949 said:
What makes me laugh is this "sudden discovery" that their are unions in the ps or that they have "sick days"
During the "good times", the private sector would simply bite their tongue and pay the union extortion but now the City is bankrupt, the province and Ottawa are running huge deficits. There is an official 10% and an unofficial 20% unemployment rate. Welcome to reality:mad: .

My broker even had to lower their definition of "rich" clients from $1million to $1. Yup, some of their former "rich" clients actually now have a NEGATIVE net worth.
 

wantoplay

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Rockslinger said:
but now the City is bankrupt

Mayor Melonhead needs to take some business classes. He made this bed, now they get to lie in it. And forget handouts from the rest of us hard working Ontario folks, or the rest of Canada.

Back on topic..... I wonder how long before the members want to give in? Strike pay surely won't cover mortgage and other debts, would it??
 
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