Full school vouchers for all

[Prim0]

One of the problems with this model is that despite the existence of provincial standards, it is unknown if such a large scale social experiment will actually benefit anyone, or would hurt an entire generation of those being taught.

Was it KNOWN if bussing was going to benefit anyone or hurt an entire generation? What about standardized testing? What about all of the other social experiments that get conducted on public schools?

Why not try to let parents have a choice about where to send their children to school. Sure they have a "choice" now...but the government it still taking the their tax money for that child as if s/he were still going to the public school. Sounds more like mafia extortion to me.

 

[buckwheat1]

We all help each other out!!! it's like health I haven't been to a doctor in 3 years but I pay health taxes. If one owns say 2-3 properties in Ontario
and say have NO kids they still have to pay education taxes on all 3 properties. Standardized proves nothing it was just a political move by Harris.
If you like the idea wewll scores over the last several years are up so Liberals must be doing something right. Social status palys a big part in education

 

[greensleaves]

I post this a second time as I cannot find it in the string

Thankyou for your considerate responses. They are the best so far.

Dr Know

1 Again What Data??? I know of no data that captures the abuse that occurs in the public shools. Every time a fat child is ridiculed, every time a Gay is called names, racial slurs, physical assaults etc where is this data???
If given a choice what gay would not go to a gay orientated school?
This abuse is not done by intent of the system but occurs because one is forced to jump into a melting pot system because Big Brother thinks it knows best. Again, everyone is abused to some degree because the system is geared to be a melting pot not geared for individual needs.

2 That the public schools have differentiated some learning programs is an admittance on their part that for the last 150 years they have be grossly negligent. As well, such differentation is not available to all nor can it possibly capture the differentation available in private enterprise once the billions of dollars Big Brother has have taken are released to the people and entrepeneurship is allowed to flourish and the Teslars, the Einsteins, the Mozarts of our day deeply explore the fundamentals of brilliant human achievement and how this is best nutured in INDIVIDUAL children.
CBC did a program on some of the alternative concepts tried by the public schools that failed so bad parents had to have a sit in to get Big Brothers arrogant attention to the simple fact there kids were not learning.
A system that took 150 years to even consider differentation is seriously disfunctional. The problem is systematic. The system needs to be changed.
You seem happy to retain 10% of what you learned. Myself, I believe that 90% of my time being wasted is unacceptable in the extreme.

3 What Gay, I use them as my clearest example although there are many, has ever sued and won for damages to their self esteem and loss of their childhood as they were forced into a melting pot of homophobia? I submit it is possible to do so only in theory. I know of one parent who tried then simply had to give up because the money and time spent were too onerous.

4 Yes. This is about me as an individual as well as the needs of society. Why should a parent be forced to educate their children when their taxes have been taken for this purpose? Give them their monies back. And you are missing my most salient point that being society will be better off when people have freedom to educate as they see fit (refer to point 2.)

Another point is that government control over our childrens' minds is a scary thing indeed. What happens when fundamentalism takes control of our society. I do not want some Muslem, Nazi (yes it is possible they are out there waiting for the chance), or as it has been in the past, Christian fundamentalist telling all children what to think.


Tboy

1 I agree that people should work to change the school system. Bear in mind that self interest groups will fight back with fury and power so peaceful civil disobedience seems the way to go.

2 Maybe. It is not a given that public schools will vanish. They can compete for the monies with everyone else. What it will do is create a better and much more varied system as parents opt for the best.

3 Who ensures quality now? The goverment as they set guidelines but it is the customer who ensures quality in the end. Do not go to a school that you do not feel good about.
This is not to say there would not be problems, I do not propose perfection simply something surperior to the status quo. Private enterprise will do to education what it did to the computer. We are in the dark ages of education and do not know it.

4 Disagree. The number 100,000 children stay home everyday to avoid bullys and those are just the ones that stay home, is the USA only. This abuse, as well all the other forms, occur because our schools are a melting pot. I. E. everyone gets in. Putting a homophobic next to a homo is extemely abusive and I would hate to be the teacher in such a distructive environment.

5 Not really. We have discrimination laws already. But yes, disruptive children should go to a school that is geared to their needs instead of not learning in an environment that cannot deal with them and at the same time stopping others from learning. Some selection would occur, while I concede this, I fail to understand why this would be a bad thing if bright kids go to the bright school, atheltic kids go to the athletic school, religous fundementalists go to their school etc. Society will not fall apart.

6 No one knows for sure. A study should be made on the cost of Pulic schools comopared to private . I strongly suspect private education is cheaper. That the government does things cheaper is a rarity.
THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS YET TO DO SUCH A COST EFFECTIVE STUDY SHOULD INFURIATE YOU. THEY HAVE TAKEN OVER YOUR LIFE WITHOUT EVEN CONSIDERING THE OPTION OF FREEDOM.

7 There will be issues that will need to be dealt with. I suppose bankruptcy of a private school is one. I do not propose perfection just something better. Stop the linear thinking you have been taught and consider the benefits of freedom as well as the negatives.

 

[buckwheat1]

Well then home school I guess that's the only answer and you can be fully accountable for everything. Then all they'll get is a GED.

General Education Diploma!!!!

 

[onthebottom]

Many of the private schools would cherry pick or use criteria different than academic achievement(ie religion). Would result in 'Public" schools being the school of last resort. Also, do you envision the schol 'industry' dramaticallt increasing in scope? Private schools today in Toronto are largely filled. Where are these new schools going to come from to support their huge new booming populations of 'private' students. And the teachers will be cherry- picked from the 'public' system.

I was taught in a public school as I think many Terb members were. It wasn't so bad. I think todays schools have gone downhill(why else would such an idea be proposed) and that problem is the one that needs to be fixed. And to say that public schools represent a limitation on freedom is a bit of a stretch.

I do think a bit of competition would make both systems better. I am also a result of the public school system in the US, both K-12 and then a large public University. Not everyone can go to as good a schools as I went to, some kids grow up in very tough neighborhoods where other distractions get in the way.... I think it would be nice if those kids could go to better schools.

OTB

 

[Anynym]

I think you're exaggerating the cost differential between a good and bad/special needs student, or the number of those students.
...
OTB

And I think you're seriously underestimating the cost differential.

I don't think there's much cost spread at the lower end of the cost range. One classroom for 25 kids, one teacher, 1/16th of a librarian, 1/16 of a Principal, 1/16 VP, 1/16 secretary. The building can be compact (kids might call it cramped).

Contrast with special needs kids, who might be stretching it to place 8 kids in the same space, one teacher with two classroom assistants, maybe no librarian, but maybe 1/8 of a Principal, 1/4 of a VP. (That is, maybe an average of one Vice Principal for four classes of special needs students.) The building must be fully accessible, spacious, and fully secure. Any equipment used must be up to the task. Call it roughly triple the costs per student, for labour, space, and equipment.

In between are kids who need a bit of extra attention, perhaps because of a medical disorder or minor disability. These students are much more numerous, but they do place added stress on the system, requiring additional support staff, teaching assistants, additional VPs. In order to be able to isolate these students temporarily, additional space is required in the school. At best, we might consider it a 10% overhead (i.e. our classroom of 25 ideal students is reduced to 23 less than ideal students). More likely, there are a few with a 20-50% added burden on the system, and our class of 25 is either reduced to 18 or requires a 1/3 teaching assistant.

These numbers are hypotheticals. Do you have a source for more exact figures?

 

[greensleaves]

my replies

I have replied but my replies were not posted so I will try again as I saved them. My belief that the command of the public schools should be terminated is a real one. I am testing out my hypothosis against some of the brightest wankers in the world - terbites. I appreciate all serious responses.
Most radical ideas are laughed at in the beginning as paradigm shifts are always hard for people to accept but this is understandable and I will not hold your ignorance against you.


Allow me to continue my retort.

buckwheat1 Your numbers for the public school costs are way off. $7900 is what a school is compensated for each student, the actual costs are far greater. This $7900 does not include the capitolization costs ie the cost to build the school, nor does it include the loss of tax revenue as schools sit on some extremely choice property, the costs of the huge government buildings and employees, the costs to run the buses, repair costs etc.

I submit private schools are cheaper (but not of course boarding schools)

Giving you the money in school vouchers will not increase your taxes, indeed, if I am correct it will decrease your taxes. And , by the way, you do pay for it all even though a small potion comes directly from your income tax where do you suppose the rest comes from? From a money tree?

LarryFyne Yes bloody way. You cannot use one example to define all. There are tons of alternate educational places that are superior, some by great sums, that are radically different in concept. If a certain school sucks it is your job as a parent not to send your child there.


wonkyknee NO. Vouchers goes to the child, not the parent.

onthe bottom My point exactly. If the public school can effectively compete with the private enterprise allow them to do so . If not they go the way of the dinosaur






Here are some of the brighest responses and my retort

Dr Know

1 Again What Data??? I know of no data that captures the abuse that occurs in the public shools. Every time a fat child is ridiculed, every time a Gay is called names, racial slurs, physical assaults etc where is this data???
If given a choice what gay would not go to a gay orientated school?
This abuse is not done by intent of the system but occurs because one is forced to jump into a melting pot system because Big Brother thinks it knows best. Again, everyone is abused to some degree because the system is geared to be a melting pot not geared for individual needs.

2 That the public schools have differentiated some learning programs is an admittance on their part that for the last 150 years they have be grossly negligent. As well, such differentation is not available to all nor can it possibly capture the differentation available in private enterprise once the billions of dollars Big Brother has taken are released to the people and entrepeneurship is allowed to flourish and the Teslars, the Einsteins, the Mozarts of our day deeply explore the fundamentals of brilliant human achievement and how this is best nutured in INDIVIDUAL children. We are in the dark ages of education and, like all dark ages, they end when people are given their freedom.

CBC radio did a 4 hour program on some of the alternative concepts tried by the public schools that failed so bad parents had to have a sit in to get Big Brothers arrogant attention to the simple fact that their kids were not learning.

A system that took 150 years to even consider differentation is seriously disfunctional. The problem is systematic. The system needs to be changed.
You seem happy to retain 10% of what you learned. Myself, I believe that 90% of my time being wasted is unacceptable in the extreme.


3 What Gay, I use them as my clearest example although there are many, has ever sued and won for damages to their self esteem and loss of their childhood as they were forced into a melting pot of homophobia? I submit it is possible to do so only in theory. I know of one parent who tried then simply had to give up because the money and time spent were too onerous.

4 Yes. This is about me as an individual as well as the needs of society. Why should a parent be forced to educate their children when their taxes have been taken for this purpose? Give them their monies back. And you are missing my most salient point that being society will be better off when people have freedom to educate as they see fit (refer to point 2.)

Another point is that government control over our childrens' minds is a scary thing indeed. What happens when fundamentalism takes control of our society. I do not want some Muslem, Nazi (yes it is possible they are out there waiting for the chance), or as it has been in the past, Christian fundamentalist telling all children what to think.


Tboy

1 I agree that people should work to change the school system. Bear in mind that self interest groups will fight back with fury and power so peaceful civil disobedience seems the pnly way to go.

2 Maybe. It is not a given that public schools will vanish. They can compete for the monies with everyone else. What it will do is create a better and much more varied system as parents opt for the best.

3 Who ensures quality now? The goverment as they set guidelines but it is the customer who ensures quality in the end. Do not go to a school that you do not feel good about.
This is not to say there would not be problems, I do not propose perfection simply something surperior to the status quo. Private enterprise will do to education what it did to the computer. We are in the dark ages of education and do not know it.

4 Disagree. The number 100,000 children stay home everyday to avoid bullys and those are just the ones that stay home, is USA numbers only. This abuse, as well all the other forms, occur because our schools are a melting pot. I. E. everyone is thrown together. Putting a homophobic next to a homo is extremely abusive and I would hate to be the teacher in such a distructive environment.

5 Not really. We have discrimination laws already. But yes, disruptive children should go to a school that is geared to their needs instead of not learning in an environment that cannot deal with them and at the same time stopping others from learning. Some selection would occur, while I concede this, I fail to understand why this would be a bad thing if bright kids go to the bright school, atheltic kids go to the athletic school, religous fundementalists go to their school etc. Society will not fall apart.

6 No one knows for sure. A study should be made on the cost of Public schools compared to private . I strongly suspect private education is cheaper. That the government does things cheaper is a rarity.
THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS YET TO DO SUCH A COST EFFECTIVE STUDY SHOULD INFURIATE YOU. THEY HAVE TAKEN OVER YOUR LIFE WITHOUT EVEN CONSIDERING THE OPTION OF FREEDOM.

7 There will be issues that will need to be dealt with. I suppose bankruptcy of a private school is one. I do not propose perfection just something better. Stop the linear thinking you have been taught and consider the benefits of freedom (as well as the negatives.)

 

[greensleaves]

Allow me to continue my retort.

buckwheat1 Your numbers for the public school costs are way off. $7900 is what a school is compensated for each student, the actual costs are far greater. This $7900 does not include the capitolization costs ie the cost to build the school, nor does it include the loss of tax revenue as schools sit on some extremely choice property, the costs of the huge government buildings and employees, the costs to run the buses, repair costs etc.

I submit private schools are cheaper (but not of course boarding schools)

Giving you the money in school vouchers will not increase your taxes, indeed, if I am correct it will decrease your taxes. And , by the way, you do pay for it all even though a small potion comes directly from your income tax where do you suppose the rest comes from? From a money tree?

LarryFyne Yes bloody way. You cannot use one example to define all. There are tons of alternate educational places that are superior, some by great sums that are radically different in concept. If a certain school sucks it is your job as a parent not to send your child there.


wonkyknee NO. Money goes to the child not the parent.

onthe bottom My point exactly. If the public school can effectively compete with the private enterprise allow them to do so . If not they go the way of all the dinosaur






Thankyou for your considerate responses. They are the best so far.

Dr Know

1 Again What Data??? I know of no data that captures the abuse that occurs in the public shools. Every time a fat child is ridiculed, every time a Gay is called names, racial slurs, physical assaults etc where is this data???
If given a choice what gay would not go to a gay orientated school?
This abuse is not done by intent of the system but occurs because one is forced to jump into a melting pot system because Big Brother thinks it knows best. Again, everyone is abused to some degree because the system is geared to be a melting pot not geared for individual needs.

2 That the public schools have differentiated some learning programs is an admittance on their part that for the last 150 years they have be grossly negligent. As well, such differentation is not available to all nor can it possibly capture the differentation available in private enterprise once the billions of dollars Big Brother has have taken are released to the people and entrepeneurship is allowed to flourish and the Teslars, the Einsteins, the Mozarts of our day deeply explore the fundamentals of brilliant human achievement and how this is best nutured in INDIVIDUAL children.
CBC did a program on some of the alternative concepts tried by the public schools that failed so bad parents had to have a sit in to get Big Brothers arrogant attention to the simple fact there kids were not learning.
A system that took 150 years to even consider differentation is seriously disfunctional. The problem is systematic. The system needs to be changed.
You seem happy to retain 10% of what you learned. Myself, I believe that 90% of my time being wasted is unacceptable in the extreme.

3 What Gay, I use them as my clearest example although there are many, has ever sued and won for damages to their self esteem and loss of their childhood as they were forced into a melting pot of homophobia? I submit it is possible to do so only in theory. I know of one parent who tried then simply had to give up because the money and time spent were too onerous.

4 Yes. This is about me as an individual as well as the needs of society. Why should a parent be forced to educate their children when their taxes have been taken for this purpose? Give them their monies back. And you are missing my most salient point that being society will be better off when people have freedom to educate as they see fit (refer to point 2.)

Another point is that government control over our childrens' minds is a scary thing indeed. What happens when fundamentalism takes control of our society. I do not want some Muslem, Nazi (yes it is possible they are out there waiting for the chance), or as it has been in the past, Christian fundamentalist telling all children what to think.


Tboy

1 I agree that people should work to change the school system. Bear in mind that self interest groups will fight back with fury and power so peaceful civil disobedience seems the way to go.

2 Maybe. It is not a given that public schools will vanish. They can compete for the monies with everyone else. What it will do is create a better and much more varied system as parents opt for the best.

3 Who ensures quality now? The goverment as they set guidelines but it is the customer who ensures quality in the end. Do not go to a school that you do not feel good about.
This is not to say there would not be problems, I do not propose perfection simply something surperior to the status quo. Private enterprise will do to education what it did to the computer. We are in the dark ages of education and do not know it.

4 Disagree. The number 100,000 children stay home everyday to avoid bullys and those are just the ones that stay home, is the USA only. This abuse, as well all the other forms, occur because our schools are a melting pot. I. E. everyone gets in. Putting a homophobic next to a homo is extemely abusive and I would hate to be the teacher in such a distructive environment.

5 Not really. We have discrimination laws already. But yes, disruptive children should go to a school that is geared to their needs instead of not learning in an environment that cannot deal with them and at the same time stopping others from learning. Some selection would occur, while I concede this, I fail to understand why this would be a bad thing if bright kids go to the bright school, atheltic kids go to the athletic school, religous fundementalists go to their school etc. Society will not fall apart.

6 No one knows for sure. A study should be made on the cost of Pulic schools comopared to private . I strongly suspect private education is cheaper. That the government does things cheaper is a rarity.
THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS YET TO DO SUCH A COST EFFECTIVE STUDY SHOULD INFURIATE YOU. THEY HAVE TAKEN OVER YOUR LIFE WITHOUT EVEN CONSIDERING THE OPTION OF FREEDOM.

7 There will be issues that will need to be dealt with. I suppose bankruptcy of a private school is one. I do not propose perfection just something better. Stop the linear thinking you have been taught and consider the benefits of freedom as well as the negatives.

 

[261252]

my replies

Unfortunately, my replies have been lost in hyperspace so I will repost some of them now as I have saved them.


Allow me to continue my retort.

buckwheat1 Your numbers for the public school costs are way off. $7900 is what a school is compensated for each student, the actual costs are far greater. This $7900 does not include the capitolization costs ie the cost to build the school, nor does it include the loss of tax revenue as schools sit on some extremely choice property, the costs of the huge government buildings and employees, the costs to run the buses, repair costs etc.

I submit private schools are cheaper than public schools (but not boarding schools)

Giving you the money in school vouchers will not increase your taxes, indeed, if I am correct it will decrease your taxes. And , by the way, you do pay for it all even though a small potion comes directly from your income tax where do you suppose the rest comes from? From a money tree?

LarryFyne Yes bloody way. You cannot use one example to define all. There are tons of alternate educational places that are superior, some by great sums, that are radically different in concept. If a certain school sucks it is your job as a parent not to send your child there.


wonkyknee NO! Vouchers goes to the child not the parent.

onthe bottom My point exactly. If the public school can effectively compete with the private enterprise allow them to do so . If not they go the way of all the dinosaur






These are the best and most challenging responses.

Dr Know

1 Again What Data??? I know of no data that captures the abuse that occurs in the public shools. Every time a fat child is ridiculed, every time a Gay is called names, racial slurs, physical assaults etc where is this data???
If given a choice what gay would not go to a gay orientated school?
This abuse is not done by intent of the system but occurs because one is forced to jump into a melting pot system because Big Brother thinks it knows best. Again, everyone is abused to some degree because the system is geared to be a melting pot, not geared for individual needs.

2 That the public schools have differentiated some learning programs is an admittance on their part that for the last 150 years they have be grossly negligent. As well, such differentation is not available to all nor can it possibly capture the differentation available in private enterprise once the billions of dollars Big Brother has have taken are released to the people and entrepeneurship is allowed to flourish and the Teslars, the Einsteins, the Mozarts of our day deeply explore the fundamentals of brilliant human achievement and how this is best nutured in INDIVIDUAL children.
CBC radio did a 4 hour broadcast on some of the alternative concepts tried by the public schools that failed so bad parents had to have a sit in to get Big Brothers arrogant attention to the simple fact their kids were not learning.
A system that took 150 years to even consider differentation is seriously disfunctional. The problem is systematic. The system needs to be changed.
You seem happy to retain 10% of what you learned. Myself, I believe that 90% of my time in public school being wasted is unacceptable in the extreme.
Like the peasants of the Medival era , we are in the Dark ages – in this case of education - and do not know it

3 What Gay, I use them as my clearest example although there are many others, has ever sued and won for damages to their self esteem and loss of their childhood because they were forced into a melting pot of homophobia? I submit it is possible to do so only in theory. I know of one parent who tried then simply had to give up because the money and time spent were too onerous.

4 Yes. This is about me as an individual as well as the needs of society. Why should a parent be forced to educate their children when their taxes have been taken for this purpose? Give them their monies back. And you are missing my most salient point that being society will be better off when people have freedom to educate as they see fit (refer to point 2.)

Another point is that government control over our childrens' minds is a scary thing indeed. What happens when fundamentalism takes control of our society. I do not want some Muslem, Nazi (yes it is possible they are out there waiting for the chance), or as it has been in the past, Christian fundamentalist telling all children what to think.


Tboy

1 I agree that people should work to change the school system. Bear in mind that self interest groups will fight back with fury and power so peaceful civil disobedience seems the only way to go.

2 Maybe. It is not a given that public schools will vanish. They can compete for the monies with everyone else. What it will do is create a better and much more varied system as parents opt for the best.

3 Who ensures quality now? The goverment as they set guidelines but it is the customer who ensures quality in the end. Do not go to a school that you do not feel good about.
This is not to say there would not be problems, I do not propose perfection simply something surperior to the status quo. Private enterprise will do to education what it did to the computer. We are in the dark ages of education and do not know it.

4 Disagree. The number 100,000 children stay home everyday to avoid bullys and those are just the ones that stay home, is the USA numbers only. This abuse, as well all the other forms, occur because our schools are a melting pot. I. E. everyone gets thrown together. Putting a homophobic next to a homo is extemely abusive and I would hate to be the teacher in such a distructive environment.

5 Not really. We have discrimination laws already so private schools would not be allowed to disciminate. But yes, disruptive children should go to a school that is geared to their needs instead of not learning in an environment that cannot deal with them and at the same time they are stopping others from learning. While I concede that some selection would occur, I fail to understand why this would be a bad thing if bright kids go to the bright school, athletic kids go to the athletic school, religous fundementalists go to their school etc. It is an unproven hypothosis, with no emperical backing, that society will not fall apart as a result of freedom to educate your children as you see fit.

6 No one knows for sure if private schools are cheaper than public ones. A study should be made on the cost of Pulic schools compared to private . I strongly suspect private education is cheaper. That the government does things cheaper is a rarity.
THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS YET TO DO SUCH A COST EFFECTIVE STUDY SHOULD INFURIATE YOU. THEY HAVE TAKEN OVER YOUR LIFE WITHOUT EVEN CONSIDERING THE OPTION OF FREEDOM.

7 There will be issues that will need to be dealt with. I suppose bankruptcy of a private school is one. I do not propose perfection just something better. Stop the linear thinking you have been taught and consider the benefits of freedom as well as the negatives.

 

[greensleaves]

First my apologies for duplicating my replies. That was a stupid misuse of the board but was not intentional.

I feel this string has been productive in quality of thought, particularly Dr Know and Tboy, both of who feel I am off my Meds and to who I have responded.

I still feel I am correct. We are in the dark ages of education and it takes a "paradigm shift" in thought to understand and those who are the first to annunciate such a shift are always considered "off their meds".


As well, the Tories did not lose on the voucher argument, they lost an election based on several issues, one cannot categorically state they lost on one issue that was never even fully debated.

I compare this issue with fuedalism. The argument went that if peasants were given their freedom society would collapse. The peasants themselves accepted this Biblical principal. If we had not terminated fuedalism our greatest technological achievement would still be the horseshoe and plough(invented by Jethro Tull from whence comes the rock groups name.)

The point being freedom equals progress. Government controll equals self interest and bureaucracy. That it has taken 150 years for government education to begin to understand something as obviously basic as differentational concepts in education - first introduced in private education I might add - well, I feel this proves my point.

If anyone wants to continue this lively and provocative discussion I will always be willing. Just rememeber to be respectful please.

 

[tboy]

Tboy

1 I agree that people should work to change the school system. Bear in mind that self interest groups will fight back with fury and power so peaceful civil disobedience seems the only way to go.

Sorry, you're completely incorrect. Civil disobediance is NOT the way to go. It will only get you arrested. The CIVIL way to do it is creat public awareness of your idea(s), garner support from the public then approach the politicans with it. But the thing is, YOU have to come up with the complete plan, you can't just go and say "I want this, you figure out how to do it".

2 Maybe. It is not a given that public schools will vanish. They can compete for the monies with everyone else. What it will do is create a better and much more varied system as parents opt for the best.

No, they won't vanish, just be filled with the riff raff that the private schools won't accept. Basically turning them into dumping grounds.

3 Who ensures quality now? The goverment as they set guidelines but it is the customer who ensures quality in the end. Do not go to a school that you do not feel good about.
This is not to say there would not be problems, I do not propose perfection simply something surperior to the status quo. Private enterprise will do to education what it did to the computer. We are in the dark ages of education and do not know it.

One doesn't have much choice in the school that your kids attend. Attendance is determined by location and unless there are two highschools in the same district, I don't believe you can say, live at Jane Finch and go to a high school on the bridal path.

Yes, the government determines quality control now via standardized testing and being responsible to maintain their own properties. How they enforce it? I have no idea but it is the school staff that submits the results of the testing. Privatizing school will require inspectors to visit the schools to determine that their minimum requirements are met. This goes for the building, as well as the curriculum.

4 Disagree. The number 100,000 children stay home everyday to avoid bullys and those are just the ones that stay home, is the USA numbers only. This abuse, as well all the other forms, occur because our schools are a melting pot. I. E. everyone gets thrown together. Putting a homophobic next to a homo is extemely abusive and I would hate to be the teacher in such a distructive environment.

You're already talking about segregation. Welcome back to the 50's.....Do you think bullying will suddenly vanish in a private school? Shit, obviously you've never met anyone who has gone to one. It is often WORSE in private schools. How will it be any different? Do you think a business will turn away the money from a student if they have to expell them due to bullying? LOL give your head a shake.

5 Not really. We have discrimination laws already so private schools would not be allowed to disciminate. But yes, disruptive children should go to a school that is geared to their needs instead of not learning in an environment that cannot deal with them and at the same time they are stopping others from learning. While I concede that some selection would occur, I fail to understand why this would be a bad thing if bright kids go to the bright school, athletic kids go to the athletic school, religous fundementalists go to their school etc. It is an unproven hypothosis, with no emperical backing, that society will not fall apart as a result of freedom to educate your children as you see fit.

So once again you're talking about segregation based on ability. So do you also propose different testing for each of YOUR criteria? Athletic kids would only be tested on their ability in sports? Bright kids would have harder tests? This would totally destroy the value of a diploma knowing that different kids are learning different things.

Schools would not be allowed to discriminate, but you're talking discrimination in your answer. The minute you start separating kids on ANY grounds is the minute you invite racial discrimination.

No, you do NOT have the right to educate your kids as you see fit. There are minimum standards that society has developed over the years to try and create a standardized system of education and give ALL kids the same chance to learn the same things. Sorry, if you want to teach your kid hate, you'll have to move outside the country. Same goes if you want to teach him martian instead of proper english, math, etc. Society, through its elected officials will NOT allow anyone (or try not to anyways) to fuck up their kids via a poor education.

6 No one knows for sure if private schools are cheaper than public ones. A study should be made on the cost of Pulic schools compared to private . I strongly suspect private education is cheaper. That the government does things cheaper is a rarity.
THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS YET TO DO SUCH A COST EFFECTIVE STUDY SHOULD INFURIATE YOU. THEY HAVE TAKEN OVER YOUR LIFE WITHOUT EVEN CONSIDERING THE OPTION OF FREEDOM.

Taken over my life, gimme a BREAK. Jesus, do you even listen to yourself? Our education system has been in place for about 100 years and has done pretty good by the world's standards. The problem with schools today isn't government involvement, it is parenting. Education starts at home and so does proper behaviour!!!

7 There will be issues that will need to be dealt with. I suppose bankruptcy of a private school is one. I do not propose perfection just something better. Stop the linear thinking you have been taught and consider the benefits of freedom as well as the negatives.

Well, you better sharpen your crayons because you'll have to take EVERYTHING into consideration before determining whether your "idea" is better or not.

As for my thinking, go fuck yourself. You have NO right to turn this into a personal attack when we're only discussing the pros and cons of your idea. This is a free country and I'm allowed by law to have and voice my opinion as long as it doesn't involve racism or the spreading of hate.

BTW: in case you didn't know, too much freedom is what is causing most of society's problems now.....

 

[benstt]

No, you do NOT have the right to educate your kids as you see fit. There are minimum standards that society has developed over the years to try and create a standardized system of education and give ALL kids the same chance to learn the same things. Sorry, if you want to teach your kid hate, you'll have to move outside the country. Same goes if you want to teach him martian instead of proper english, math, etc. Society, through its elected officials will NOT allow anyone (or try not to anyways) to fuck up their kids via a poor education.

Good response. I had similar thoughts to the idea that people educate their children 'as they see fit.' The current system is very prescriptive for young children, and gives them more freedom in high school to direct their own courses. Ie they are given more responsibity when they can handle it.

 

[Dewalt]

I love that the internet gives people like yourselves a place to come, debate and engage in topics such as this.

That way you won't bother me in the real world with your inane ideas about how you feel the world should be run.

 

[traveler196]

There is nothing wrong with that OTB........except it upsets the status quo and the teacher"s union et all won't stand for it

 

[PussyHunter]

Having spent the last 10 years at a private school in the administrative side I had the opportunity to send my kids for a substancial discount. We are considered a middle cost school with tuition at $17000 per year no boarding. That's just the start of the costs, uniforms, books, sports, travel are all extra. And when they travel it out of province or country. Travel can be for sports teams, bands, or just field trips, like to Italy or Greece. You are expected to have your kids participate. You can easily get into 25K per year.

I sent them to the Catholic school system.

The stuff that I have seen take place would make you sick. Grades are bought regularily at private schools. I have had teachers tell me that parents don't pay this kind of money to have their child fail, they get the mark they have paid for. We had a department that was geared to just getting these kids into university. It was well run and we ran 98-100% placement in the University of their first choice.

Problem has been that these kids have had their hands held for too long and the marking for their grades were too lenient and when they get to university they struggle harder than the kids that have gone to the public systems. Many of them drop out after a year or two because they can't hack it.

Yes they have to follow the Ontario curriculum but the marks the give out are ridiculus.

The Ontario government should have a governing body to inspect and control these private schools. It's not fair to the rest that scholarships and bursuraries are taken with false marks. More deserving students miss out.

As far as special interest groups go they should be banned when it comes to education.

 

[greensleaves]

stop having kittens

Stop having kittens!

I am barfing out an idea to see if my pig can, or cannot, fly. I AM NOT TRYING TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD. My hypothesis, although weakened, still stands.

For starters, I meant all competent parents, within established parameters, more to the point their children, should educate themselves as they see fit. That does not mean you can send your kids to the Al Qaeda pilot school or, even worse, the Deepak Chopra school of “make a wish between the gaps of your thoughts and the universe will return endless possibilities” school. Self education is a God given right.

I find Pussyhunters comments to be intriguing because he has had practical experience with private school. He has observed that violence is not less as they allow any Neanderthal (actually they were the first to bury their dead) with money in and give out false high marks to keep parents happy.
Well, I have first and second hand observations of private schools that are way better than public schools with what I suspect was less money. I cannot be sure because the real cost of public schools is unknown. The numbers that are tossed about are just the monies public schools receive for the students they enrol, which is only a fraction of all costs.

In my mind, the question is how to ensure competency in all private schools, as some have demonstrated it is possible. Public schools will become better through competition.

Tboy

I disagree. Civil disobedience is often the quickest – if not the only - way to create change. Through PEACEFUL disobedience ones’ voice becomes heard by the masses and politicians. Corporations own all the estates of public thought – print, radio, TV. – that they are called public airwaves is absurd, they are not available to us, they are private airwaves run for profit. Violent disobedience will get you put in jail in such a way you will be silenced. MLK and Gandhi understood this and that is why they succeeded.

We are going to have to disagree on this next point because I believe people do have a right to segregate. That does not mean you can create a hate school but you can set standards that all will not meet. The “riff raff” can go to the school that is created to deal with them, which to my thinking, is as it should be. Which would probably be best done privately, IMHO.

No, I do not think public schools have done a great job. Look, it took them 150 years to even contemplate something as strikingly obvious as differentiation in education. Most new thoughts on education come from private schools (Montessori, Waldorf etc) and they have less than 10% of all the educational monies. You seem happy to have retained 10% of what you learned. In my twisted mind that means 90% of my time in school was a waste. When the public school oligopoly is broken, and these monies are released, I suspect the Mozarts and the Einsteins of our day may create something so brilliant in education that we will not recognize it as such. We are in the dark ages of education.

As well, I find it scary that the government has such easy access to our children’s’ thoughts. This allows the Nazis, the Stalinists or any other fundalmentalist group of the day that takes over (yes it can happen here) to control what we think. It is already happening IMHO. Once I was in the real world, as I have travelled, I have discovered that all is not as we were taught, and capitalism has a very ugly side of oppression and coercion and enforced poverty to third world countries and it is the task of the CIA and the SEALS to maintain the status quo. If that fails the military bomb the f**k out of them.

Yes, I have not fully fleshed out this concept. It is simply an idea I have had for some time but have never articulated. It is my pencil that needs to be sharpened, not my crayons. When my idea is put six feet under I will thank the shootist who corrected my thinking.

 

[C Dick]

Yes, I am all for vouchers, and whatever creates alternatives to the public system. The public system is a disgrace, it is entirely run for the benefit of people running it, the unions, trustees, administrators, etc. Allowing parents to choose is better all round. The notion that any system could do worse than the public system does not really make sense, and is proven by research.

At least if the parents choose it, they are likely to encourage the kids to make an effort. Most people I know went to public school, felt it was stupid, and tell their kids so, I know I do, though they have figured it out for themselves anyway. They just go to school to socialize, they know they are not going to learn much.

 

[guelph]

what qualifications would private schools have to meet and how do you enforce them?

stupid idea that would see the money spread out so thin noone would get a good education.

But then again I find private schools a little repulsive to begin with and the majority of people I've met who went to them are horrible human beings you wanna bitch slap when they grow up, so I'm far more in favour of one system for all anyway.

Don't forget one of the latest shining examples of private school education

Conrad Black

 

[greensleaves]

Conrad Black is a saint compared to George Bush member of the bizarre, highly elitist and secretative "Skull and Crossbones Society". Let us not forget the pimps on wall street and the corporate executives and the ...
ah, but wait! Bernardo, Bundy, Gacy, Dahmer, Manson and almost every Hells Angel came from the public schools.

I opened a can of worms on this one and I have learned.

Vote seems about 50/50 but the most passionate and reasoned arguments -mine aside - believe privatization is a no brainer in the sense it would be catastrophic to do it.

 

[buckwheat1]

Well as stated before I had no problems with the public school system had 1 graduate last year in the 90's and 1 in grade 11 this year in the high 80's.
It takes work on both PARENT and STUDENT. A lot of people complain about teh public system but insted of trying to correct any of it they want to run away from it and send kids to a private school at the publics purse's money.
Insted of complaining home school your child and the benefits will be all yours.
You will then not be able to complain, as stated before Ontario has one of the best systems in the world, so stop whinning.