Full school vouchers for all

[greensleaves]

Allow me to continue my retort.

buckwheat1 Your numbers for the public school costs are way off. $7900 is what a school is compensated for each student, the actual costs are far greater. This $7900 does not include the capitolization costs ie the cost to build the school, nor does it include the loss of tax revenue as schools sit on some extremely choice property, the costs of the huge government buildings and employees, the costs to run the buses, repair costs etc.

I submit private schools are cheaper (but not of course boarding schools)

Giving you the money in school vouchers will not increase your taxes, indeed, if I am correct it will decrease your taxes. And , by the way, you do pay for it all even though a small potion comes directly from your income tax where do you suppose the rest comes from? From a money tree?

LarryFyne Yes bloody way. You cannot use one example to define all. There are tons of alternate educational places that are superior, some by great sums that are radically different in concept. If a certain school sucks it is your job as a parent not to send your child there.


wonkyknee NO. Money goes to the child not the parent.

onthe bottom My point exactly. If the public school can effectively compete with the private enterprise allow them to do so . If not they go the way of all the dinosaur.

 

[jwmorrice]

John Tory has arisen!!

jwm

 

[greensleaves]

Allow me to continue my retort.

buckwheat1 Your numbers for the public school costs are way off. $7900 is what a school is compensated for each student, the actual costs are far greater. This $7900 does not include the capitolization costs ie the cost to build the school, nor does it include the loss of tax revenue as schools sit on some extremely choice property, the costs of the huge government buildings and employees, the costs to run the buses, repair costs etc.

I submit private schools are cheaper (but not of course boarding schools)

Giving you the money in school vouchers will not increase your taxes, indeed, if I am correct it will decrease your taxes. And , by the way, you do pay for it all even though a small potion comes directly from your income tax where do you suppose the rest comes from? From a money tree?

LarryFyne Yes bloody way. You cannot use one example to define all. There are tons of alternate educational places that are superior, some by great sums that are radically different in concept. If a certain school sucks it is your job as a parent not to send your child there.


wonkyknee NO. Money goes to the child not the parent.

onthe bottom My point exactly. If the public school can effectively compete with the private enterprise allow them to do so . If not they go the way of the dinosaur

 

[jwmorrice]

Allow me to continue my retort.

You are continuing to continue! Well, what the hell. If we didn't read it the first time.....

jwm

 

[buckwheat1]

look where John Tory ened up!!!! He lost an election on that type of thing by 1000's of votes

 

[Anynym]

So what is wrong with allowing any kid who doesn't want to go to the public school (that's getting the $8,200) to take that $8,200 to a private school? If good private schools are 8-10k it would seem an easy way to give people choice?

OTB

This is what's wrong with it: averages aren't the same as per-student costs. (To say it another way: costs do not follow a flat linear distribution.)

There are some students who cost a lot more to educate than others. (Or otherwise add significantly to education costs in other ways, ranging from disrupting classes to vandalism.) Maybe there are learning difficulties. Maybe there are language barriers to be overcome, and which demand more than average attention from a teacher. Private schools have the luxury of decling to enrol them. Public schools do not.

Figuring out what a "fair" voucher value would be becomes a political game.

I'm fully in favour of allowing students to find the best education with a transferable voucher for just under the full cost of educating the best students. Let's say the average cost is $8500 p.a., and the best students only cost $5500 p.a. Set the voucher value at $5k flat, and include any educational experience (including home schooling) as a viable payee - on the condition that the student at least meets the average grade on standardized tests.

Some will note that this sets up a potential double-whammy trap: first, the public system benefits by a few dollars for every student it sheds to private education. Then, private educators only get paid for above-average students. So any private education which doesn't prove in the claim of lower costs and better education will have to overcome a financial shortfall (presumably through tuition).

 

[tboy]

I personally think the OP went off his meds, but anyways......

1) We live in Canada. Here we have a pretty decent public school system. If you don't like it? Start a campaign to get the politicians to change it or STFU.
2) To go with your voucher system would only serve to ruin our current system. There already aren't enough schools and you want to make less?
3) Privatized schools: so many would crop up to full the void that who would oversee their quality? Hi I'm Bob. I have a school. Got $8200.00?
4) 100,000 kids stay at home because of bullying. Let's see, is that for North America? The US? Canada? so what's that, about .01% of the total number of kids in school? Yes, something should be done about it and I know many teachers try but do you really think that the bullying will stop if a kid goes to another school? There's bullies everywhere.
5) If you privatize the school system then many schools will be selective on who they let attend. You won't have a 2 tiered system (rich vs poor) but rich, poor, smart, dumb, handicapped, white, black, latino etc etc etc

I could see the costs actually being a LOT higher to the government because they'd constantly have to hire more and more inspectors to inspect these schools and insure everyone is getting a fair education.

Oh, and what happens if the school goes bankrupt in the middle of the school year? Those kids all fail?

 

[nottyboi]

I am against it and I am even against tax deductions for school fees. Why? I have no kids yet pay a LOT of $$ to send other peoples brats to school. I'm ok with that. Vouchers will allow people to subsidize their private schools and will further gut the public school system. It is a bad bad thing.

 

[MuffinMuncher]

I personally think the OP went off his meds, but anyways......

Further proof that the log-on function should be hooked to a breathalyzer or require a minimum score on a standard IQ test.

 

[onthebottom]

This is what's wrong with it: averages aren't the same as per-student costs. (To say it another way: costs do not follow a flat linear distribution.)

There are some students who cost a lot more to educate than others. (Or otherwise add significantly to education costs in other ways, ranging from disrupting classes to vandalism.) Maybe there are learning difficulties. Maybe there are language barriers to be overcome, and which demand more than average attention from a teacher. Private schools have the luxury of decling to enrol them. Public schools do not.

Figuring out what a "fair" voucher value would be becomes a political game.

I'm fully in favour of allowing students to find the best education with a transferable voucher for just under the full cost of educating the best students. Let's say the average cost is $8500 p.a., and the best students only cost $5500 p.a. Set the voucher value at $5k flat, and include any educational experience (including home schooling) as a viable payee - on the condition that the student at least meets the average grade on standardized tests.

Some will note that this sets up a potential double-whammy trap: first, the public system benefits by a few dollars for every student it sheds to private education. Then, private educators only get paid for above-average students. So any private education which doesn't prove in the claim of lower costs and better education will have to overcome a financial shortfall (presumably through tuition).

I think you're exaggerating the cost differential between a good and bad/special needs student, or the number of those students.

I always find it interesting how threatened some are by the thought of competition in the education marketplace. How do other government monopolies work - what kind of car would you be driving if you could only buy one type from the government.

That said I don't think it will change results much, parents make good students and good kids, not schools or teachers. I support vouchers, but not for people like me but for people who can't afford private schools or to live in a nice neighborhood. I would means test vouchers, and allow poor students who have parents that give a shit, move them to good schools so they can succeed.

OTB

 

[Hurricane Hank]

I don't have kids, so I don't really care how smart or stupid your kids turn out.
I believe parents make or break kids. Lets get better parents.

 

[261252]

Allow me to continue my retort.

buckwheat1 Your numbers for the public school costs are way off. $7900 is what a school is compensated for each student, the actual costs are far greater. This $7900 does not include the capitolization costs ie the cost to build the school, nor does it include the loss of tax revenue as schools sit on some extremely choice property, the costs of the huge government buildings and employees, the costs to run the buses, repair costs etc.

I submit private schools are cheaper (but not of course boarding schools)

Giving you the money in school vouchers will not increase your taxes, indeed, if I am correct it will decrease your taxes. And , by the way, you do pay for it all even though a small potion comes directly from your income tax where do you suppose the rest comes from? From a money tree?

LarryFyne Yes bloody way. You cannot use one example to define all. There are tons of alternate educational places that are superior, some by great sums that are radically different in concept. If a certain school sucks it is your job as a parent not to send your child there.


wonkyknee NO. Money goes to the child not the parent.

onthe bottom My point exactly. If the public school can effectively compete with the private enterprise allow them to do so . If not they go the way of all the dinosaur

 

[buckwheat1]

As a parent It's my responsibility to educate my child and I have 2 kids and both have done very well 92% final average grade 12 mark last year and the other 88% in grade 11 first semester. I sent my kids to the public system and I had NO problems with it. The oldest recieved a scholorship
into Queens University, it's the #1 rated university in Canada.

 

[buckwheat1]

Just to let you know my wife stayed home for the first 5 years with the children. I can say that Neither child attended junior Kindergarden. Why?
because where I live #1 there bused to school and they attend every other day but attend all day long. We did this as a 4 year old at school all day is whipped out teh following day.

 

[tboy]

I don't have kids, so I don't really care how smart or stupid your kids turn out.
I believe parents make or break kids. Lets get better parents.

Couldn't agree more........

 

[Prim0]

My two cents...

You can look at the amount of money spent on students in systems all over the US and find that the per student spending does not correlate directly with performance. Often it is the inner city schools that spend the most per student yet have the worst standardized test scores and graduation rates.

I'm generally conservative...I don't want the government involved in much of anything. Make all schooling private, return us our tax dollars and let US spend them the way we want. If you have kids, maybe its the best private school or if you can't afford that, its the Ford Pinto of schools. I don't think the government (any government) is very good at anything (look at the people who work in them or are elected to positions in them). The less it does, the better!

Liberals feel free to go off on an emotionally based rant now!

Prim0

 

[chiller_boy]

So what is wrong with allowing any kid who doesn't want to go to the public school (that's getting the $8,200) to take that $8,200 to a private school? If good private schools are 8-10k it would seem an easy way to give people choice?

OTB

Many of the private schools would cherry pick or use criteria different than academic achievement(ie religion). Would result in 'Public" schools being the school of last resort. Also, do you envision the schol 'industry' dramaticallt increasing in scope? Private schools today in Toronto are largely filled. Where are these new schools going to come from to support their huge new booming populations of 'private' students. And the teachers will be cherry- picked from the 'public' system.

I was taught in a public school as I think many Terb members were. It wasn't so bad. I think todays schools have gone downhill(why else would such an idea be proposed) and that problem is the one that needs to be fixed. And to say that public schools represent a limitation on freedom is a bit of a stretch.

 

[buckwheat1]

lets be honest here we all do the best we can for our children and that includes education, so if you want private pay for it. I'd have to agree one doesn't always get the best education by going to the private school, however so succeed in the private setting. So I say pay for what YOU want!!!

 

[Never Compromised]

There are those that believe so passionately in the private sector, that they are willing to use the private sector model to apply to a public good, ie education.


The theory is that schools will develop a reputation, just like cars have a reputation, and that families will want to send their children to the perceived "better" school. The falling enrollment at the "not so good schools" will force the administration to better the "product" to entice more shoppers.

One of the problems with this model is that despite the existence of provincial standards, it is unknown if such a large scale social experiment will actually benefit anyone, or would hurt an entire generation of those being taught.

While I did not agree with many of the racist arguments put forth during the last provincial election, there is certainly a danger that some cultural groups would continue to foster hatred towards other groups.

 

[greensleaves]

DR KNOW and TBOY

Thankyou for your considerate responses. They are the best so far.

Dr Know

1 Again What Data??? I know of no data that captures the abuse that occurs in the public shools. Every time a fat child is ridiculed, every time a Gay is called names, racial slurs, physical assaults etc where is this data???
If given a choice what gay would not go to a gay orientated school?
This abuse is not done by intent of the system but does occur because one is forced to jump into a melting pot. Again, everyone is abused to some degree because the system is geared to be a melting pot not geared for individual needs.

2 That the public schools have differentiated some learning programs is an admittance on their part that for the last 150 years they have be grossly negligent. As well, such differentation is not available to all nor can it possibly capture the differentation available in private enterprise once the billions of dollars Big Brother has have taken are released to the people and entrepeneurship is allowed to flourish and the Teslars, the Einsteins, the Mozarts of our day deeply explore the fundamentals of brilliant human achievement and how this is best nutured in INDIVIDUAL children.
A system that took 150 years to even consider differentation has serious systematic failures.
You seem happy to retain 10% of what you learned. Myself, I believe that 90% of my time being wasted is unacceptable in the extreme.

3 What Gay, I use them as my clearest example, has ever sued and won for damages to their self esteem as they were forced into a melting pot? I submit it is possible to do so only in theory. I know of some failed lawsuits though.

4 No, this is not about me. But why should a parent be forced to educate their children when their taxes have been taken for this purpose? Give them their monies back. And you are missing my most salient point that being society will be better off when people have freedom to educate as they see fit (refer to point 2.)

Another point is that government control over our childrens' minds is a scary thing indeed. What happens when fundamentalism takes control of our society. I do not want some Muslem, Nazi (yes it is possible they are out there waiting for the chance), or as it has been in the past, Christian fundamentalist telling all children what to think.


Tboy

1 I agree that people should work to change it. Bear in mind that self interest groups will fight back with fury and power so peaceful civil disobedience seems the way to go.

2 Maybe. The current system can compete for the monies with everyone else. What it will do is create a better and much more varied system as parents opt for the best.

3 Who ensures quality now? The goverment as they set guidelines but it is the customer who ensures quality in the end. Do not go to a school that you do not feel good about.
This is not to say there would not be problems, I do not propose perfection simply something surperior to the status quo as private enterprise will do to education waht it did to the computer.

4 Disagree. The number 100,000 children stay home everyday to avoid bullys and those are just the ones that stay home, is the USA only. This abuse, as well all the other forms, occur because our schools are a melting pot. I. E. everyone gets in. Putting a homophobic next to a homo is extemely abusive and I would hate to be the teacher in such a distructive environment.

5 Not really. We have discrimination laws already. But yes, disruptive children should go to a school that is geared to their needs instead of not learning in an environment that cannot deal with them and at the same time stopping others from learning. Some selection would occur, while I concede this, I fail to understand why this would be a bad thing if bright kids go to the bright school, atheltic kids go to the athletic school, religous fundementalists go to their school etc. Society will not fall apart.

6 No one knows for sure. A study should be made on these costs. I suspect it will be cheaper. That the government does things cheaper is a rarity.
THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS YET TO DO SUCH A COST EFFECTIVE STUDY SHOULD INFURIATE YOU. THEY HAVE TAKEN OVER YOUR LIFE WITHOUT EVEN CONSIDERING THE OPTION OF FREEDOM.

7 There will be issues that will need to be dealt with. I suppose bankruptcy of a private school is one. I do not propose perfection just something better.