France becomes world’s first country to enshrine abortion rights in constitution

[Skoob]

Thanks for admitting that a constitutional change in both France and the US is harder than passing a simple bill.

Not sure what you're saying I'm admitting but a constitutional change that has taken only 2 years is on par with some bills that have taking that amount of time or perhaps longer.

What point are you trying to make here other than putting words in my mouth and coming to your own conclusions?

 

[Valcazar]

How easily they enshine women's reproduction rights while ignoring men's.

What do paternity tests have to do with men's reproductive rights?

 

[Valcazar]

I wasn't referring specifically to the US constitution but more about any nation's constitution.
2 years to change the constitution is not a very long time. Some laws can take that long to pass as well.

Sure.
But in general changing a constitution takes longer than changing a law.

So as easily as a change is made one way, it can me made the other way in a relatively short amount of time.
That was my point.

Not true, though.
It is rarely as easy to change things in both directions.

 

[Butler1000]

What do paternity tests have to do with men's reproductive rights?

You don't think a man has a right to know if he is the father?

 

[roddermac]

Wow.

That's the most messed up thing I've heard someone admit to on these climate change debates.
You are seriously against the use of data?

How do you think you discuss science if you can't use data?

Data has been posted that has gone against your arguments yet you don't believe those charts.

 

[Skoob]

Sure.
But in general changing a constitution takes longer than changing a law.



Not true, though.
It is rarely as easy to change things in both directions.

Ok. I'm not sure what argument you are trying to make here. "Takes longer"..."takes less"...we are talking semantics here.
Laws can change. Some take longer to change, some take less.
Constitution amendments, some take longer, some take less.

Is 2 years a long time? Is it s short time?

Who cares really?

 

[Frankfooter]

Data has been posted that has gone against your arguments yet you don't believe those charts.

The data backs the science.
The global temp is up, sea levels are up, sea temps are up, glacial melt is up and polar melt is up.

You are denying those charts.

 

[Valcazar]

You don't think a man has a right to know if he is the father?

Sure, but what does that have to do with reproductive rights?
Not knowing if you are knocking someone up doesn't prevent you from doing so.

 

[Valcazar]

Ok. I'm not sure what argument you are trying to make here. "Takes longer"..."takes less"...we are talking semantics here.
Laws can change. Some take longer to change, some take less.
Constitution amendments, some take longer, some take less.

Is 2 years a long time? Is it s short time?

Who cares really?

You're the one who brought it up, dude.
And since you asked, I know of no nation where changing the Constitution is easier than changing a law.

 

[Butler1000]

Sure, but what does that have to do with reproductive rights?
Not knowing if you are knocking someone up doesn't prevent you from doing so.

Knowing paternity is a man's primary reproduction right. Just as choosing whether to have the child is a woman's. Under French law a woman can just declare a man the father and the laws do not allow him to contest it with a DNA test. With all of the financial obligations.

On the other side if you read the article a woman actually lied, told a man she was a rape victim, and put the child up for adoption. When he was in fact the father. The courts ruled he could not take custody later. Ergo the state and this woman literally took away his child from him with no recourse.

Thats the definition of denial of reproduction rights.

 

[Valcazar]

Knowing paternity is a man's primary reproduction right. Just as choosing whether to have the child is a woman's.

Oh wow.
OK, we have wildly different view of reproductive rights.

Under French law a woman can just declare a man the father and the laws do not allow him to contest it with a DNA test. With all of the financial obligations.

Oh, I see.
You just don't have any idea about the French system and have made up some kind of boogeyman in your head.
Got it.

 

[Butler1000]

Oh wow.
OK, we have wildly different view of reproductive rights.



Oh, I see.
You just don't have any idea about the French system and have made up some kind of boogeyman in your head.
Got it.

And you have officially shown you are clueless.

If a man isn't allowed, by law, to get any genetic testing to determine paternity, how does he contest it?

And I notice you didn't comment on the actual court case I mentioned.

And finally, define Men's reproductive rights in your eyes then.

 

[Valcazar]

And you have officially shown you are clueless.

If a man isn't allowed, by law, to get any genetic testing to determine paternity, how does he contest it?

You're right. It would be hard.
Good thing that isn't actually the law in France, isn't it?

I mean, did you actually think France let a woman just name any random man to be the father and it was accepted as true no matter what?

Butler, I have very little respect for you, and even I didn't think you were dumb enough to actually believe that.

And I notice you didn't comment on the actual court case I mentioned.

Because I know very little about it and the article says very little about it in detail.

And finally, define Men's reproductive rights in your eyes then.

The right to be in control of your ability to reproduce or not (within the limits of your own body).
That's not the same thing as legal paternity.

 

[Butler1000]

You're right. It would be hard.
Good thing that isn't actually the law in France, isn't it?

I mean, did you actually think France let a woman just name any random man to be the father and it was accepted as true no matter what?

Butler, I have very little respect for you, and even I didn't think you were dumb enough to actually believe that.



Because I know very little about it and the article says very little about it in detail.



The right to be in control of your ability to reproduce or not (within the limits of your own body).
That's not the same thing as legal paternity.

That is the law.

Paternity Testing Ban Upheld in France | International Biosciences UK

Paternity Testing has been banned in France for the past 15 years. Order Your Paternity Test from International Biosciences Now!

www.ibdna.com

French men's insecurity over paternity of offspring creating 'a society of doubt'

IMAGINE AN anguished French father sneaking into a bedroom at night to snip a lock of hair, or cajoling an infant to obtain a…

www.irishtimes.com

Only the govt can authorize it. And only under certain circumstances.

And feel free to actually look into the rest as well. When you are actually informed you can come back and comment.

 

[Valcazar]

That is the law.

No it isn't.
A woman cannot just declare any man she wants to the father of the child.

Paternity Testing Ban Upheld in France | International Biosciences UK

Paternity Testing has been banned in France for the past 15 years. Order Your Paternity Test from International Biosciences Now!

www.ibdna.com

French men's insecurity over paternity of offspring creating 'a society of doubt'

IMAGINE AN anguished French father sneaking into a bedroom at night to snip a lock of hair, or cajoling an infant to obtain a…

www.irishtimes.com

Only the govt can authorize it. And only under certain circumstances.

Yes, which is quite different from what you were claiming.

And feel free to actually look into the rest as well. When you are actually informed you can come back and comment.

I did just look into the law and no, a woman can't just pick a man and claim he is the father.
No, paternity testing isn't forbidden, it is regulated.
And yeah, that guy in that article was broken up with a girl, she claimed the baby was from a rape, and he didn't ask for paternity testing at the time.
Only after finding out later did he regret it, decide that he wanted to be the father of this child who was already adopted.
The court denied him taking the kid away from its lawful parents.

 

[Butler1000]

No it isn't.
A woman cannot just declare any man she wants to the father of the child.



Yes, which is quite different from what you were claiming.



I did just look into the law and no, a woman can't just pick a man and claim he is the father.
No, paternity testing isn't forbidden, it is regulated.
And yeah, that guy in that article was broken up with a girl, she claimed the baby was from a rape, and he didn't ask for paternity testing at the time.
Only after finding out later did he regret it, decide that he wanted to be the father of this child who was already adopted.
The court denied him taking the kid away from its lawful parents.

And no consequences for the woman right? I'd call that a clear cut case of denial of reproductive rights. Without any recourse.

Imagine a man kidnaps a baby from the hospital after falsely claiming it was dead. What would be the result then?

And the point is, without a court order, a man has no recourse when he was lied to about paternity. Creating a high bar and taking away the right to test is a denial.

 

[Valcazar]

And no consequences for the woman right? I'd call that a clear cut case of denial of reproductive rights. Without any recourse.

Like I said, we have very different views of reproductive rights.
Yours clearly involve legal rights of guardianship (in fact, they appear to focus on them).
Mine are about the biological and health care issues.

Imagine a man kidnaps a baby from the hospital after falsely claiming it was dead. What would be the result then?

Very likely a criminal arrest, because kidnapping is a crime.
So is falsely representing it as dead, probably.

But none of that would be a reproductive rights issue.

And the point is, without a court order, a man has no recourse when he was lied to about paternity.

Because the paternity has no bearing on the legal guardianship of the child in France.
You either chose to raise the child or you didn't.

I get that you feel he should be able to take the child away from its parents, but French law doesn't agree.

 

[Butler1000]

Like I said, we have very different views of reproductive rights.
Yours clearly involve legal rights of guardianship (in fact, they appear to focus on them).
Mine are about the biological and health care issues.



Very likely a criminal arrest, because kidnapping is a crime.
So is falsely representing it as dead, probably.

But none of that would be a reproductive rights issue.



Because the paternity has no bearing on the legal guardianship of the child in France.
You either chose to raise the child or you didn't.

I get that you feel he should be able to take the child away from its parents, but French law doesn't agree.

Wrong.

A married woman can cheat. Claim its the husband's. And unless he can get a court order, is forced to assume guardianship. In fact the reasoning for the ban is to prevent family breakups over paternity lies. They actually say it.

That you don't think paternity determination has anything to do with men's reproductive rights shows how far behind in thinking you are.

And yes to criminal charges. Yet a woman claims a false rape to prevent a man from being a father, puts the child up for adoption, and the man is denied his rights. With no repercussions for the woman. She deserves to be held criminally liable for this.

 

[Valcazar]

Wrong.

A married woman can cheat. Claim its the husband's. And unless he can get a court order, is forced to assume guardianship. In fact the reasoning for the ban is to prevent family breakups over paternity lies. They actually say it.

Yes.
If you think your wife is cheating, you can bring it to court to dispute paternity of the child.
That's almost certainly going to end your marriage, but then you already thought she was cheating on you.
Otherwise, the view is that if you are raising a child together as a family in the marriage, then you have committed to raising that child.

This is still not "The Woman can just name whoever she wants as the father", which is the nonsense you were claiming earlier.

That you don't think paternity determination has anything to do with men's reproductive rights shows how far behind in thinking you are.

It shows I am much clearer in my thinking than you are.

And yes to criminal charges. Yet a woman claims a false rape to prevent a man from being a father, puts the child up for adoption, and the man is denied his rights. With no repercussions for the woman. She deserves to be held criminally liable for this.

I'm sorry.
What proof, exactly, do you have that she claimed a false rape in order to prevent him from being a father?
Where in this story was this exposition of her motives?

 

[Butler1000]

Yes.
If you think your wife is cheating, you can bring it to court to dispute paternity of the child.
That's almost certainly going to end your marriage, but then you already thought she was cheating on you.
Otherwise, the view is that if you are raising a child together as a family in the marriage, then you have committed to raising that child.

This is still not "The Woman can just name whoever she wants as the father", which is the nonsense you were claiming earlier.



It shows I am much clearer in my thinking than you are.



I'm sorry.
What proof, exactly, do you have that she claimed a false rape in order to prevent him from being a father?
Where in this story was this exposition of her motives?

It says so in the story as written?