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fuji

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Flub quotes from a summary report which, in its footnote number 81, references the original WHO report on the topic.

Here's the bits from the original underlying report that Flub did not quote:

At the present time, stunting is considered at a level of low public health problem in the oPt
(WHO consider that stunting <20 per cent is low mild public health problem), but if the
economic and political situation deteriorates further, stunting levels are likely to increase.
and

These levels of wasting and stunting are insignificant and suggest that undernutrition among school children is not a problem
http://www.who.int/hac/crises/international/wbgs/oPt_Review_of_nutrition_situation_June2005.pdf
 

blackrock13

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And if you have an argument to make, go ahead and make it.
If that's all you have to say, then please just shut up.
As opposed to post idiotic argument like you do daily, I know when to shut up.

You said you'd go away, but didn't. Nuff said for now.
 

basketcase

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flubadub

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Here's the bit that Fuji quotes:
These levels of wasting and stunting are insignificant and suggest that undernutrition among school children is not a problem
Its from a section called: Malnutrition in School-aged Children
And is talking about stunting in children over the age of 5, while the quotes and debate has been about children aged 1-5.
Fuji has taken a quote out of context, once again.
You have been caught fudging the data.
I demand an apology.
 

flubadub

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Flub quotes from a summary report which, in its footnote number 81, references the original WHO report on the topic.

Here's the bits from the original underlying report that Flub did not quote:

http://www.who.int/hac/crises/international/wbgs/oPt_Review_of_nutrition_situation_June2005.pdf
And Fuji links to the 2005 study, not the 2009 study I linked to.
Fail number two.

So first, he takes a quote out of context for one report, then links only to a four year old report.
Once more, from the 2009 report.
The present situation in the Gaza strip can best be described as a complex disaster of catastrophic proportions, getting steadily worse and with no prospect of improving as long as the present lack of basic security, the almost total blockade and the factitious internal strife among Palestinian political fractions continue
http://www.who.int/hac/crises/intern...ep_21may09.pdf


That's why he should apologize.
Caught out twice.
 

fuji

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And Fuji links to the 2005 study, not the 2009 study I linked to.
The 2005 study is the original source, the 2009 document you linked simply quotes it, per footnote number 81 in your 2009 document you moron. I actually pointed that out to you in post #41 but obviously you are a complete failure when it comes to reading comprehension.

Unlike your wild claims the actual original source of the information about stunting calls it a low level public health problem among infants, and insignificant in older children.

It also directly attributes the low level of stunting to poverty.

That's why he should apologize.
Why should I apologize for your stupid inability to read your own document?
 

blackrock13

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The 2005 study is the original source, the 2009 document you linked simply quotes it, per footnote number 81 in your 2009 document you moron.

Why should I apologize for your stupid inability to read your own document?
Don't you just hate when they don't read the fine print.
 

flubadub

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The 2005 study is the original source, the 2009 document you linked simply quotes it, per footnote number 81 in your 2009 document you moron. I actually pointed that out to you in post #41 but obviously you are a complete failure when it comes to reading comprehension.

Unlike your wild claims the actual original source of the information about stunting calls it a low level public health problem among infants, and insignificant in older children.
Once again, you are taking a quote out of context.
The reference to footnote 81, in the 2009 document, is a quote on the conditions of childhood wasting and stunting previous to 2006, which is why they reference the 2005 report. What they have to say about the changes in conditions are thus:

However, since June 2006 Gaza has been subject to a very severe blockade
by Israel, which has led to a
severe deterioration in social and economic life, including rising
unemployment and poverty. The health effects of this development have resulted in stagnating life
expectancy for the 1.5 million people in Gaza. Infant and child mortality has risen, including
evidence of childhood stunting, anaemia affecting nearly half the children under 5 years (and in
child bearing women), and low birth weight increased from 4% in 2002 to 7.3% in 2006.9 In
addition, there is evidence of profound psychological distress and pathology from the many years of
conflict and blockade, and that “the siege reached all facets of life, affected the whole society, and
suspended people’s life”10.
Footnote 10 refers to a more recent study from 2008 from the Univercity of Gaza.
Your continual reference to out of date reports and information is looking more and more like an intent to misinform and less and less like your usual blustery stupidity.
I still am waiting for an apology.
 

fuji

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Once again, you are taking a quote out of context.
The reference to footnote 81, in the 2009 document, is a quote on the conditions of childhood wasting and stunting previous to 2006, which is why they reference the 2005 report.
You like to say things are "out of context" when the reality is you are just plain fucking wrong. The 2009 report makes no other numerical reference to stunting. You were clearly quoting the 2005 data because you were clearly asserting 10%, which is the number from the 2005 report. The only other reference to stunting in the 2009 report is in passing, without numbers or any assessment of severity.

Sorry but you can't back out of this one--your 10% figure that you have been bandying around here is from the 2005 report, and WHO called it a minor problem. In another report you'd previously cited a few months back they actually called it normal.

Footnote 10 refers to a more recent study from 2008 from the Univercity of Gaza.
Pathetic: Not only is that not a WHO report, that report doesn't even discuss stunting!!! Pathetic.

Also did you bother reading that 2008 University of Gaza "study"? I put "study" in quotes because it is a "study" without any methods, without data collection, without statistical analysis, without any of the things you would normally think would be part of a study. Instead it's more like an opinion piece by a guy with an axe to grind.

In any case it doesn't make even one single reference to stunting so I have no idea why you think it's relevant here.
 

flubadub

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You like to say things are "out of context" when the reality is you are just plain fucking wrong. The 2009 report makes no other numerical reference to stunting. You were clearly quoting the 2005 data because you were clearly asserting 10%, which is the number from the 2005 report. The only other reference to stunting in the 2009 report is in passing, without numbers or any assessment of severity.
The report clearly says 'Infant and child mortality has risen, including
evidence of childhood stunting, anaemia affecting nearly half the children under 5 years '

And further
'The present situation in the Gaza strip can best be described as a complex disaster of catastrophic proportions, getting steadily worse and with no prospect of improving as long as the present lack of basic security, the almost total blockade and the factitious internal strife among Palestinian political fractions continue'

Which part of disaster of catastrophic proportions do you think is ok?

Sorry but you can't back out of this one--your 10% figure that you have been bandying around here is from the 2005 report, and WHO called it a minor problem. In another report you'd previously cited a few months back they actually called it normal.
Pre-blockade stunting in Children was reported at 7%
Al Jazeera's reports present stunting at 14% (note that Israel has not allowed any full studies since the blockade has started).
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/06/20106138352642602.html
That 14% does two things. First it puts it over your 10% is ok amount, and secondly it quantifies the amount of stunting directly responsible to the blockade as 7%. Given that the population of Gaza age 1-14 is about 700,000, if we conservativel estimate the 1-5 group to be 200,000 that means that the Israeli policy you have been backing and saying is not so bad is directly responsible for stunting 14,000 children. That's 14,000 permanently disfigured tottlers that you are saying you are ok with.

Now I'll admit that the WHO considers 10% stunting to be acceptable in poor middle eastern countries, but given that Israel proper is not a poor middle eastern country, and rates of stunting in Jewish children in Israel proper negligible, then you have grounds (along with the multitude of other problems detected by WHO) for the WHO to call Gaza a disaster of catastrophic proportions.

So let me hear you say you are ok with a policy that directly resulted in permantly disfiguring 14,000 tottlers.
 

basketcase

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...(note that Israel has not allowed any full studies since the blockade has started)....
This is the easiest thing to call bullshit on. Hamas does what they want in Gaza and plenty of aid organizations are already working there.

Now I'll admit that the WHO considers 10% stunting to be acceptable in poor middle eastern countries, but given that Israel proper is not a poor middle eastern country
Considering Gaza isn't part of Israel (nor do they want to be) and that they are a poor middle eastern country...

Obviously you also don't understand the meaning of the word 'stunting' since it means that kids don't grow up to be as tall as they could have been. Not exactly a serious medical 'disfigurement'.
 

flubadub

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This is the easiest thing to call bullshit on. Hamas does what they want in Gaza and plenty of aid organizations are already working there.
Here's the line from the WHO report:
'As the nutrition surveillance programme was interrupted during the IMO CL22 and the time frame is too short, it is not yet possible to assess the impact of the IMO CL22 on the nutrition status of the population.'

And further from the report:
'Furthermore, this crisis is not following the normal pattern of going from a crisis/relief phase, to recovery and onwards to development. Due to the virtually total blockade of its land, sea and air borders the Gaza population continues to be cut off from the materials, experts and financial means required for entering a recovery phase, and the crisis is only steadily deepening.'

Now my interpretation is that this means that no studies have been allowed since, and since WHO has not been able to put together a fully documented report since 2005, I'm taking this as confirmation. I'd be happy to be proven wrong on this point, so go ahead.



Obviously you also don't understand the meaning of the word 'stunting' since it means that kids don't grow up to be as tall as they could have been. Not exactly a serious medical 'disfigurement'.

Stunting is permanent disfiguring due to chronic malnutrition.
Are you suggesting that its not a serious problem?
Would you be ok with your kids being stunted through malnutrition to back up this point?

Its only one facet of the problems in Gaza. Here's a more detailed look at what WHO was reporting:
Because of poverty and the siege, the quality and quantity of the food intake of the Gazans have been reduced. The situation is worst among the unemployed, the displaced and one- parent families. Over half of the households (56 %) are food insecure and spend about two thirds of their income on food.78 UNRWA's food programme has been able to provide only about 60 % of the daily calorie needs to the one million refugees. After the IMO CL22 rapidly increasing food prices have aggravated the situation, and 88% of the population were registered to receive food aid from UNWRA or WFP79.
According to a World Food Programme survey, Palestinians are eating less, many parents reducing their intake to allow their children to eat more. Half the surveyed population had decreased their spending on food, 89% had reduced the quality of food they buy, while
75% had reduced the quantity since January 2008. Almost all people have reduced their consumption of fresh fruit, vegetables and animal protein to save money. This could have health consequences considering the already high prevalence of anaemia and other micronutrient deficiencies in the oPt.80
This is all in keeping with the Israeli plan, an unofficial policy revealed by wikileaks, that Gaza should be brought 'to the brink of collapse'.
Israel committed crimes against humanity, with collective punishment on Gaza, a crime against the Geneva Conventions.
 

fuji

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The report clearly says 'Infant and child mortality has risen, including
evidence of childhood stunting, anaemia affecting nearly half the children under 5 years '
Risen to what? No doubt it's still a low level health problem and nothing serious, as it was NOWHERE CLOSE to being a serious problem before. The level of stunting could DOUBLE and according to WHO it would still be at relatively normal levels.

AThe present situation in the Gaza strip can best be described as a complex disaster of catastrophic proportions
This quote does not support the point you were making about stunting. Once you have agreed you were lying and wrong we can discuss this other different point, and talk about why Gaza is a disaster, and whose fault that really is.

Al Jazeera's reports present stunting at 14% (note that Israel has not allowed any full studies since the blockade has started).
Find the original source of that figure. "It is reported" by who? Probably by the Palestinian authority. In any case per the WHO report that level is not concerning.

First it puts it over your 10% is ok amount
You got the attribution and the number wrong. It's according to WHO, and it's 20% before they start to worry about it, per the WHO report.

Now I'll admit that the WHO considers 10% stunting to be acceptable in poor middle eastern countries, but given that Israel proper is not a poor middle eastern country, and rates of stunting in Jewish children in Israel proper negligible, then you have grounds (along with the multitude of other problems detected by WHO) for the WHO to call Gaza a disaster of catastrophic proportions.
Gaza is not Israel proper. Gaza is a poverty stricken shithole with a fucked up terrorist government that prioritizes war against Israel over public health.
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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Here's the line from the WHO report:
'As the nutrition surveillance programme was interrupted during the IMO CL22 and the time frame is too short, it is not yet possible to assess the impact of the IMO CL22 on the nutrition status of the population.'

And further from the report:
'Furthermore, this crisis is not following the normal pattern of going from a crisis/relief phase, to recovery and onwards to development. Due to the virtually total blockade of its land, sea and air borders the Gaza population continues to be cut off from the materials, experts and financial means required for entering a recovery phase, and the crisis is only steadily deepening.'

Now my interpretation is that this means that no studies have been allowed since, and since WHO has not been able to put together a fully documented report since 2005, I'm taking this as confirmation. I'd be happy to be proven wrong on this point, so go ahead.
And how exactly (besides it being your own personal - and incorrect - opinion) do these quotes show that Israel has not allowed studies in the territory that they don't comtrol?





Stunting is permanent disfiguring due to chronic malnutrition.
Are you suggesting that its not a serious problem?
Would you be ok with your kids being stunted through malnutrition to back up this point?

Its only one facet of the problems in Gaza. Here's a more detailed look at what WHO was reporting:


This is all in keeping with the Israeli plan, an unofficial policy revealed by wikileaks, that Gaza should be brought 'to the brink of collapse'.
Israel committed crimes against humanity, with collective punishment on Gaza, a crime against the Geneva Conventions.
Again, in what messed up world do you think that these quotes support you opinion?
 

flubadub

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Risen to what? No doubt it's still a low level health problem and nothing serious, as it was NOWHERE CLOSE to being a serious problem before. The level of stunting could DOUBLE and according to WHO it would still be at relatively normal levels.
Wrong, at double levels last reported it would be nearly 30%.

Find the original source of that figure. "It is reported" by who? Probably by the Palestinian authority. In any case per the WHO report that level is not concerning.
Nope, I trust Al Jazeera on this one. If you doubt it prove me wrong.


Gaza is not Israel proper. Gaza is a poverty stricken shithole with a fucked up terrorist government that prioritizes war against Israel over public health.
Gaza is under the control and responsibilty of Israel.
From WHO:
The 1.5 million people in Gaza live as in a cage from which they cannot escape, powerless to protect themselves against sudden air, sea and land attacks from IDF.

Once again trying to shift responsibility.
Lame.
 

basketcase

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...
Once again trying to shift responsibility.
Lame.
Shiting responsibility? You mean like refusing to see the link Hamas terror based policies and the troubles the Gazan population have but instead doing what you always do and try to make up some way to blame Israel?
 
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