First Mosad shark now spy vultures

[flubadub]

1) what report?

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/shin-bet-tortures-prisoners-and-denies-access-to-lawyers-1.333450
http://www.israel-palestinenews.org/2010/09/israeli-forces-torture-16-year-old.html
http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2010/10/21/israel-electric-shocking-palestinian-children/
http://www.israel-palestinenews.org/2010/11/israeli-secret-service-admits-torture.html

2) protesters who violate conditions of their release from previous charges do (ps the guy is an openly admitted anarchist)

He was on a bicycle protesting against war.
When was the last time someone in Canada went to prison for protesting against war?

3) Shot in the streets?

http://www.voanews.com/english/news/Palestinian-Shot-Killed-at-Israeli-Checkpoint----112769194.html
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=47b_1294144382
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4007573,00.html
http://newsblogged.com/video-east-jerusalem-silwan-riots-palestinian-shot-dead-092210
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/palestinian-shot-dead-by-israeli-guard-in-east-jerusalem-sparking-riots-1.315144

4) Just because you intentionally ignore the news. I seem to remember Iranian forces killing protesters who were angry about Iran's most recent fixed election.

Correct, and would you like me to find stats on how many Palestinian's have been killed in protests as well?

Like I say, they're both bad, you just seem to like one of them way more then the other.
I think they're both bad.

 

[fuji]

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/shin-bet-tortures-prisoners-and-denies-access-to-lawyers-1.333450

At the moment that has the status of an unproven and disputed allegation by a group critical of the Israeli government. Of course, you take unproven and disputed allegations as fact whenever they're critical of Israel because you are a propaganda clown.

It'll also be handled thoroughly by the Israeli courts.

He was on a bicycle protesting against war.

We have similar type guys in Canada and yes we've sentenced them to jail for 3 months or more for their protest activities here too.

When was the last time someone in Canada went to prison for protesting against war?

In Canada those types generally protest the G20 instead, and the answer is a few months ago.

http://www.voanews.com/english/news/Palestinian-Shot-Killed-at-Israeli-Checkpoi

So, again, not what you claimed. Unlike in Iran where innocent people like Neda Agha are gunned down in the street, you are coming up with reports of people in the occupied territories who acted violently or refused to follow orders at a security checkpoint.

I think they're both bad.

We know you think that, but you don't have reasons for what you think.

 

[flubadub]

At the moment that has the status of an unproven and disputed allegation by a group critical of the Israeli government.
It'll also be handled thoroughly by the Israeli courts.

We'll see if it is handled at all by the Israeli courts.
Will there be any action on this report at all, or will they, like you, try to pretend it never happened?

We have similar type guys in Canada and yes we've sentenced them to jail for 3 months or more for their protest activities here too.

Bullshit.
Citation requested.

Unlike in Iran where innocent people like Neda Agha are gunned down in the street, you are coming up with reports of people in the occupied territories who acted violently or refused to follow orders at a security checkpoint.

Of course its different.
A year ago Iran killed, what was it, 7 people, in protests against fixed elections.
A year ago Israel killed 9 people peacefully trying to bring aid to Gaza.
A few days ago Israeli tear gas killed one protester.
In October, there was a protest to mark 10 years of Israeli inaction after 13 Palestinians were killed in protests.
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=189870

Which ones are worse?
Both are bad.

 

[blackrock13]

At the moment that has the status of an unproven and disputed allegation by a group critical of the Israeli government. Of course, you take unproven and disputed allegations as fact whenever they're critical of Israel because you are a propaganda clown.

It'll also be handled thoroughly by the Israeli courts.

We have similar type guys in Canada and yes we've sentenced them to jail for 3 months or more for their protest activities here too.

In Canada those types generally protest the G20 instead, and the answer is a few months ago.

So, again, not what you claimed. Unlike in Iran where innocent people like Neda Agha are gunned down in the street, you are coming up with reports of people in the occupied territories who acted violently or refused to follow orders at a security checkpoint.

We know you think that, but you don't have reasons for what you think.

Not wanting to waste time going through each of FD's reference, I simply chose one at random;

http://newsblogged.com/video-east-jerusalem-silwan-riots-palestinian-shot-dead-092210

Guess what? It's clear he didn't read it or he wouldn't have use it to back his point.


Video: East Jerusalem Silwan Riots Palestinian Shot Dead 09/22/10

"A palestinian man has been shot dead by a security guard during riot in Silwan, East Jerusalem, two other palestinians are reported injured.

The guard is reported to have been attacked with stones at a barricade, Israeli news site Ynet is reporting an Israeli has been stabbed.

Video report below is from Sky News".



As usual, FD farked up big time in an attempt to defend his view. It's not so much what he says, it's what he doesn't say.

 

[flubadub]

Ok, how about today's:

Palestinian witnesses said two Palestinians were seen near the border when Israeli soldiers opened fire.
Palestinian rescue services were not immediately able to reach the men after dark in the area along the fence, declared a no-go zone by Israeli soldiers who regularly open fire, fearing attempts to place bombs or infiltrate Israel.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110105/wl_mideast_afp/israelpalestiniansconflictgaza


Do democratic countries shoot people who get too close to the prison walls?

 

[blackrock13]

Ok, how about today's:



http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110105/wl_mideast_afp/israelpalestiniansconflictgaza


Do democratic countries shoot people who get too close to the prison walls?

When the same people are probably told not to do it and if memory serve me there are signs that clear say stay away, and it's in a conflict zone, yes. Most American prisons have no go zones near the fence and the penitentiaries have guards in towers with guns and orders to shoot. So again, yes.

 

[flubadub]

When the same people are probably told not to do it and if memory serve me there are signs that clear say stay away, and it's in a conflict zone, yes. Most American prisons have no go zones near the fence and the penitentiaries have guards in towers with guns and orders to shoot. So again, yes.

Even American prisons don't shoot the prisoners when they go too close to the fence.
Imagine the outrage if they did that here, there'd be no end of it.

I think the number was 15% of the arable land in Gaza is going fallow, since farmers are getting shot for trying to work it.

That's why the world's largest open air prison is such a crime.

 

[blackrock13]

Even American prisons don't shoot the prisoners when they go too close to the fence.
Imagine the outrage if they did that here, there'd be no end of it.

I think the number was 15% of the arable land in Gaza is going fallow, since farmers are getting shot for trying to work it.

That's why the world's largest open air prison is such a crime.

You're absolutely right, no prisoner has been shot because they're smart enough to stay away from the fences.

So the land is going fallow because farmers are getting shot. You're an idiot and prove it every day..

 

[basketcase]

Ok, how about today's:



http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110105/wl_mideast_afp/israelpalestiniansconflictgaza


Do democratic countries shoot people who get too close to the prison walls?

Democratic countries shoot people from a hostile land who try to cross the border illegally.

Just like democratic countries thow protesters in jail when they violate bail conditions.
(remember this guy? http://www.montrealgazette.com/story_print.html?id=3558717&sponsor=)

 

[fuji]

Shuh. Just let Flubber live in his silly little fantasy world. Don't tell him that it happens in other places, he doesn't want to hear that.

Flubber, how about you try crossing from Israel into Lebanon, and not at a recognized border crossing? I'll give you $500 if you make it across alive.

 

[flubadub]

Shuh. Just let Flubber live in his silly little fantasy world. Don't tell him that it happens in other places, he doesn't want to hear that.

Flubber, how about you try crossing from Israel into Lebanon, and not at a recognized border crossing? I'll give you $500 if you make it across alive.

What's that got to do with 1.4 million people being held prisoner, starved of food and an economy?
What's that got to do with supporting crimes against humanity that have stunted 10,000 children?

There are legal ways to get from Israel into Lebanon, but from Gaza into anywhere else? Good luck.
Today's wikileak shows that Israel was forcing US companies to pay bribes to be allowed to import anything into Gaza.
Profiting from war crimes.

A U.S. diplomatic cable released by WikiLeaks says Israeli officials charged extremely high fees to allow goods to enter into Gaza.

The diplomatic cable from 2006 says American companies complained they had to pay fees up to 75 times higher than normal.

http://www.voanews.com/english/news/middle-east/WikiLeaks-Israeli-Officials-at-Gaza-Crossing-Corrupt-113015744.html

 

[fuji]

What's that got to do with 1.4 million people being held prisoner, starved of food and an economy?

What are you talking about? The topic of this thread is Gaza. I have no idea what your'e on about now.

What's that got to do with supporting crimes against humanity that have stunted 10,000 children?

You STILL saying this, even after I pointed out to you that the WHO called it normal??? Really?

Flub just answer me -- are you stupid, or just blinded by hatred?

There are legal ways to get from Israel into Lebanon, but from Gaza into anywhere else? Good luck.

Changing the topic again I see, to divert from your failure to have any answer to this: If you try and cross the Lebanon / Israeli border at an unauthorized point you will be shot dead by the Lebanese.

Wriggle, worm, and squirm all you want, but that's a fact.

 

[flubadub]

What are you talking about? The topic of this thread is Gaza. I have no idea what your'e on about now.

Nice attempt to play stupid.
Which you do very well, by the way.

You STILL saying this, even after I pointed out to you that the WHO called it normal??? Really?

10,000 children are now stunted due to the policies of Israel.
And you call that normal?

Flub just answer me -- are blinded by hatred?

No, I don't hate you.

Changing the topic again I see, to divert from your failure to have any answer to this: If you try and cross the Lebanon / Israeli border at an unauthorized point you will be shot dead by the Lebanese.

If you are from Lebanon, you can leave the country and come back easily, there is no need to try to cross the border illegally.
If you are from Gaza, good luck.


And how about yesterday's killing.
Israeli soldiers raided a west bank home and killed a 68 year old sleeping man.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/01/20111775441287850.html

 

[toguy5252]

Nice attempt to play stupid.
Which you do very well, by the way.


10,000 children are now stunted due to the policies of Israel.
And you call that normal?



No, I don't hate you.




If you are from Lebanon, you can leave the country and come back easily, there is no need to try to cross the border illegally.
If you are from Gaza, good luck.


And how about yesterday's killing.
Israeli soldiers raided a west bank home and killed a 68 year old sleeping man.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/01/20111775441287850.html

And all of this has what to do with spy vultures in Saudi Arabia?

 

[fuji]

10,000 children are now stunted due to the policies of Israel.

And you call that normal?

No, I don't: The World Health Organization does. Your short-term memory loss is causing you to forget that when I read the actual underlying report you like to cite I found the WHO called the level of stunting normal. In short, you're quoting the raw number, while omitting the conclusion that it was at normal levels. Stunting happens everywhere there's poverty. The levels there are not unusual compared to similar areas elsewhere.

Is it a problem? Sure. Is it a humanitarian crisis? No, it's a normal problem.

No, I don't hate you.

I meant your hatred of Israel, which blinds you, and causes you to say the dumbest things. You take any disreputable source as gospel truth if it's critical of Israel, but whenever anything positive is written about Israel, regardless of the excellent credentials of the source, you dispute it. Your hatred makes you illogical, and causes you to accept as true things that are blatantly wrong.

If you are from Lebanon, you can leave the country and come back easily, there is no need to try to cross the border illegally.

I didn't ask you about the legal crossings. I asked you to cross illegally, or to refuse to follow the orders of the soldiers at a checkpoint, and see what happens. You will get shot. That's the point. You asserted that it was strange or wrong that Israel would do this--every fucking country with a militarized border between it and an enemy does the exact same fucking thing.

If you want a different example--go to South Korea and try and cross into the North. See what happens. Or try crossing from the North to the South. See what happens. Pick ANY militarized border in the world and it's the same.

 

[flubadub]

No, I don't: The World Health Organization does.

Show me a report where the WHO says it is ok with policies that stunt 10% of children.
Show me a report from the WHO that says increasing stunting by 10% over a few years is ok.
Show me either of those and I'll take it back, until then, you're backing disfiguring kids.

Is it a problem? Sure. Is it a humanitarian crisis? No, it's a normal problem.

Its not a normal problem when its intentionally caused by a policy.
Then its a war crime.

You take any disreputable source as gospel truth if it's critical of Israel, but whenever anything positive is written about Israel, regardless of the excellent credentials of the source, you dispute it.

The one source you keep backing, which I find disreputable, is the IDF. They've been caught flat out lying on too many occasions to believe.
Which is probably why you still support the killings on the flotilla, despite the IDF stealing all video and being caught lying and falsifying evidence.

I didn't ask you about the legal crossings. I asked you to cross illegally, or to refuse to follow the orders of the soldiers at a checkpoint, and see what happens. You will get shot. That's the point. You asserted that it was strange or wrong that Israel would do this--every fucking country with a militarized border between it and an enemy does the exact same fucking thing.

As the occupying power, Israel has a duty to stand to international law and the Geneva conventions.
Show me where there is a law or part of the GC that say its ok to shoot people for coming close to fences.

 

[fuji]

Show me a report where the WHO says it is ok with policies that stunt 10% of children.

YOU originally provided the link you short term memory loss moron. It was a WHO report YOU provided, and it described the level of stunting as normal. Go dig up your own references. Geez.

We have been through this THREE TIMES before. I don't know what the point is of debating with you--you see something once, you run away from the debate without comment, and then later you come back and repeat the exact same bullshit as if the original debate never happened.

Really, really, really pathetic.

blah blah blah

Another diversion away from the fact that you got caught red handed. Post only credible sources or back off.

As the occupying power, Israel has a duty to stand to international law and the Geneva conventions.

Nobody disagrees. It's just your interpretation of what that means that is horribly wrong.

Show me where there is a law or part of the GC that say its ok to shoot people for coming close to fences.

There's nothing in there that says you can't.

 

[flubadub]

YOU originally provided the link you short term memory loss moron. It was a WHO report YOU provided, and it described the level of stunting as normal. Go dig up your own references. Geez.

What the WHO says is that low levels might be acceptable for some poor countries in that area, they do not say its ok to increase stunting directly through policies aimed at collective punishment. You refuse to acknowledge that distinction. While systematic malnourishment is acceptable in poor countries, it is not acceptable in a well to do country like Israel when it is caused by a policy that is in itself a war crime.



Here you go.
From WHO in 2005:

Stunting among Palestinian children below the age of 5 years appears to be on the increase. As graph 1 illustrates, stunting has increased from 7.2 per cent in 1996 to 9.4 per cent in 2004 (Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics 1998; Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics 2000; Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics 2004). This trend is based on a series of three Demographic and Health Surveys which have been carried out by the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics using the same methodology and sampling frame. There have been a number of other national-level population-based surveys carried out in recent years. The results from all the surveys are presented in graphs 8 and 9. The same increase in stunting appears to hold when all survey data are presented. Graph 2 shows that stunting levels are increasing at a faster rate in the Gaza Strip in comparison to the West Bank.

From their conclusion on that report:

Stunting is related to poverty and unemployment as a consequence of political
instability

And from their 2009 report:

However, since June 2
severe deterioration in social and economic life, including rising
unemployment and poverty. The health effects of this development have resulted in stagnating life
expectancy for the 1.5 million people in Gaza. Infant and child mortality has risen, including
evidence of childhood stunting, anaemia affecting nearly half the children under 5 years (and in
child bearing women), and low birth weight increased from 4% in 2002 to 7.3% in 2006.9 In
addition, there is evidence of profound psychological distress and pathology from the many years of
conflict and blockade, and that “the siege reached all facets of life, affected the whole society, and
suspended people’s life”10.

And on the situation in Gaza:

The 1.5 million people in Gaza live as in a cage from which they cannot escape, powerless to protect themselves against sudden air, sea and land attacks from IDF. Although Israel declared a ceasefire on 18 January 2009, more limited IDF incursions continue to occur almost
106 Speech by Commissioner Benita Ferrero-Waldner, European Commissioner for External Relations and Neighbourhood Policy, Sharm El-Sheik Conference in Support of the Palestinian Economy for the Reconstruction of Gaza, 2 March 2009.
37
daily.107 The SHM team was much disturbed to hear the many statements from civilians and health professionals indicating a profound fear that a major new attack from IDF might soon occur.

And their conclusions:

The present situation in the Gaza strip can best be described as a complex disaster of catastrophic proportions, getting steadily worse and with no prospect of improving as long as the present lack of basic security, the almost total blockade and the factitious internal strife among Palestinian political fractions continue

And on stunting:

since June 2006 Gaza has been subject to a very severe blockade by Israel, which has led to a
severe deterioration in social and economic life, including rising
unemployment and poverty. The health effects of this development have resulted in stagnating life
expectancy for the 1.5 million people in Gaza. Infant and child mortality has risen, including
evidence of childhood stunting, anaemia affecting nearly half the children under 5 years (and in
child bearing women), and low birth weight increased from 4% in 2002 to 7.3% in 2006.9 In
addition, there is evidence of profound psychological distress and pathology from the many years of
conflict and blockade, and that “the siege reached all facets of life, affected the whole society, and
suspended people’s life”1

http://www.who.int/hac/crises/international/wbgs/gaza_specialized_mission_extendedrep_21may09.pdf

I note that nowhere in this report does it say that the level or increase of stunting is acceptable

 

[blackrock13]

What the WHO says is that low levels might be acceptable for some poor countries in that area, they do not say its ok to increase stunting directly through policies aimed at collective punishment. You refuse to acknowledge that distinction. While systematic malnourishment is acceptable in poor countries, it is not acceptable in a well to do country like Israel when it is caused by a policy that is in itself a war crime.

Here you go.
From WHO in 2005:


From their conclusion on that report:


And from their 2009 report:


And on the situation in Gaza:


And their conclusions:



And on stunting:

http://www.who.int/hac/crises/international/wbgs/gaza_specialized_mission_extendedrep_21may09.pdf

I note that nowhere in this report does it say that the level or increase of stunting is acceptable

Please FD, take that break you spoke and give us an early holiday.

 

[flubadub]

Please FD, take that break you spoke and give us an early holiday.

And if you have an argument to make, go ahead and make it.
If that's all you have to say, then please just shut up.