Fired Without Cause

[Keebler Elf]

A Record of Employment is a legal requirement set by HRDC, for employment insurance purposes. It is required if the OP was paid by the hour and had an established employee relationship with the employer, and not as a contractor, I believe.

An ROE is not a reference letter. Two completely different things.

An ROE is required by Service Canada for EI purposes. Most companies also use it as a formal record of employment (which it is).

A reference letter is completely optional (unless it was negotiated into your terms of employment or is part of a collective agreement). In the absence of that, no employer is required to give you one (or even confirm your employment over the phone for that matter). In such a case you could provide a copy of your employment letter and your ROE as proof of employment (but you better have a good answer when your potential employer wants to know why you previous employer won't give you a reference).

 

[bigshot]

In my experience, when a staff member is let go and the employer offers a severance, the severance is passed across the desk once the employee signs a release. If he/she chooses not to do so, then you have the basis for a wrongful dismissal suit and the severance offer is no longer on the table. Everything from this point on has to be negotiated. The only obligations he has to the now former employer are clearly spelled out in the severance agreement. If the return of records from his personal PC is not mentioned, then he has no obligation to communicate with them if he chooses not too.

In the majority of cases that I was involved in, the former employee generally signs the original offer as they want to get that severance cheque in their hands right away. Finding a lawyer and dragging it out for six months is usually less appealing....

 

[Promo]

What were the terms of employment? If there was a clause that stated the list belonged to the employer, then he would have t give it to them, but keep a copy for himself, as you suggest. No Employment agreement, nothing to give to them.

The terms of employment, severance terms and all other paperwork is totally irrelevant to my point of view. Agreement or not .... he should give the files back in a timely manner. It's the right thing to do.

I did not intend to suggest he keep a copy for himself, I believe once the files are returned (which he would have to copy to do), I'd ask them to confirm that they could open the files and everything was okay. Once confirmed, I'd then tell them I was going to delete their files off my computer and do so. I would NOT keep the files.

Keebler said it best: "Withholding the information, or deleting it, is just sour grapes and says a lot more about who you are than about who the company is. And it's a charity to boot! Scumbag move."

Wow, Terbites are really a unique bunch of Type A personalities. I expected that type of response from Fuji, but several others here are usually pretty moral in their views.

 

[Perry Mason]

Love the attitude in this thread.

I agree with you on this one...

What the fuck is the problem with you people? Looking for problems where there are none? Do you enjoy making mountains out of mole hills?

Even if the charity is wrong on what they did -- which is highly doubtful -- why should the OP retaliate by doing something else that is wrong? In less than 30 seconds the OP can give them something that is of value to them but garbage to him!!!

Do two wrongs make a right on this board?

Or is revenge the order of the day here? If so, remember the laws of Karma!

Perry

 

[bigshot]

I agree with you on this one...

What the fuck is the problem with you people? Looking for problems where there are none? Do you enjoy making mountains out of mole hills?
Even if the charity is wrong on what they did -- which is highly doubtful -- why should the OP retaliate by doing something else that is wrong? In less than 30 seconds the OP can give them something that is of value to them but garbage to him!!!
Do two wrongs make a right on this board?
Or is revenge the order of the day here? If so, remember the laws of Karma!
Perry

I believe that the answer to your question is due in large part to the OPs description of the previous employer. This likely coloured the attitude of many of those who responded. We expect more consideration towards the employees if they are a charity, and the "ghetto" comment did not put them in a good light: To be honest, the charity is a bit shady as they sometimes can be. Some of the money raised does not go towards the cause despite claiming 100% of it does.

 

[destillat]

I believe that the answer to your question is due in large part to the OPs description of the previous employer. This likely coloured the attitude of many of those who responded. We expect more consideration towards the employees if they are a charity, and the "ghetto" comment did not put them in a good light: To be honest, the charity is a bit shady as they sometimes can be. Some of the money raised does not go towards the cause despite claiming 100% of it does.

If someone has half a brain, they will instantly realize that it is absolutely impossible to rightly claim that 100% of donations go towards the cause.

 

[Keebler Elf]

Severance and termination pay (payment-in-lieu of notice) are two separate things. The OP got termination pay. He very likely didn't qualify for severance pay (need 5+ years of service and 50+ employees working there).

Termination pay is set under the Employment Standards Act at 1 week of pay per year of service up to 8 weeks pay. There is no negotiation for this. They can give you more out of the goodness of their hearts but they are legally obligated to give you this at a minimum if they are terminating your employment without notice. If they decide to give you actual notice (the same amount of time), they are required to give you nothing other than your regular pay. They call this working through your notice of termination. Normally employers don't want to do that because of the risk of you being an asshole when you know your job is coming to an end so employers usually just pay it out and you leave immediately. That said, I've seen employers force employees to work through their notice as a big "fuck you" to a troublesome employee. They actually didn't care if the person did any work or not, just the fact they had to work every day to get the money was satisfaction enough.

Termination pay is for termination without cause. If you're terminated for cause, you get nada, zip, zilch, bupkiss. You also won't be entitled to severance pay (if it was applicable in the first place).

It's normally termination for cause or an employer not giving enough severance (which is much less defined and can vary but in general is around 1 month per year of service up to 2 years pay) that attracts civil litigation. That's where there is some negotiation as the employer is weighing the risk of a court case vs. what it will take to make you fuck off and die. But the employee has to pay his own legal fees upfront so there's a definitive disincentive for the employee as well.

From what I can tell, and without knowing what the employee was paid vs. his rate of pay and how long he worked, it sounds like the employer did the right thing in this case.

 

[KBear]

The OP did the work, the charity paid him for the work. Send the work to the charity. It will likely take longer to read this thread than to clean up the file and send it.

The OP should clean up the file and attach it to the email with a note, thanks for the opportunity to work...

Is the right thing to do, don't have to worry about future issues, and karma will reward you.

Sound like the charity was generous to pay any severance pay when the OP basically abandoned the job.

 

[nottyboi]

I would tell them you had to pawn the laptop due to financial difficulties resulting form your job loss. If they gave you $500, you could retrieve it and give them the data. - yes I am a pretty good liar lol.

 

[Keebler Elf]

I would tell them you had to pawn the laptop due to financial difficulties resulting form your job loss. If they gave you $500, you could retrieve it and give them the data. - yes I am a pretty good liar lol.

So you'd lie to a charity and then try to extort them?

Thanks, that's all I need to know about you.

Merry Christmas.

 

[fuji]

So you'd lie to a charity and then try to extort them?

Thanks, that's all I need to know about you.

Merry Christmas.

No surprise there. His posting history demonstrates pretty much zero moral character.

 

[fuji]

The OP did the work, the charity paid him for the work. Send the work to the charity. It will likely take longer to read this thread than to clean up the file and send it.

The OP should clean up the file and attach it to the email with a note, thanks for the opportunity to work...

Is the right thing to do, don't have to worry about future issues, and karma will reward you.

Sound like the charity was generous to pay any severance pay when the OP basically abandoned the job.

He certainly COULD do that, but he has some options:

1. Delete the file. Not much they can do about that and I guess the OP likely doesn't feel he owes them good will

2. Tell them it is going to take some effort to collect their data ads deliver it to them, and that his going rate for that work is $500/hr, paid in advance. If they pay he will be happy to tidy up the file and sit down with someone to show them how to use it.

Certainly it is their information and he cannot make use of it for his own purposes, but he doesn't have to work for free either.

 

[Promo]

He certainly COULD do that, but he has some options:

1. Delete the file. Not much they can do about that and I guess the OP likely doesn't feel he owes them good will

2. Tell them it is going to take some effort to collect their data ads deliver it to them, and that his going rate for that work is $500/hr, paid in advance. If they pay he will be happy to tidy up the file and sit down with someone to show them how to use it.

Certainly it is their information and he cannot make use of it for his own purposes, but he doesn't have to work for free either.

No surprise there. Fuji's posting history demonstrates pretty much zero moral character.

Fuji would demand $500/hr for his effort for returning a found wallet. I mean Fuji doesn't have to work for free.

But hey, it's the democratic way. Free enterprise system. Economics 101. Anybody who thinks differently is a communist.

 

[fuji]

No surprise there. Fuji's posting history demonstrates pretty much zero moral character.

Fuji would demand $500/hr for his effort for returning a found wallet. I mean Fuji doesn't have to work for free.

But hey, it's the democratic way. Free enterprise system. Economics 101. Anybody who thinks differently is a communist.

I would return a found wallet for free. I treat people well by default, but I don't show good will to people who fucked me over. I reciprocate.

 

[nottyboi]

So you'd lie to a charity and then try to extort them?

Thanks, that's all I need to know about you.

Merry Christmas.

OP said they were already a charity of questionable ethics, (most are) so yes I would. A great number of charities are fraudulent. For the most part they are just a business as far as I am concerned.

 

[goalie000]

If you want to keep the info, download it to a memory stick and then delete the info from the laptop. Then you can honestly say you don't have anything on your computer .

 

[Scarbarian]

Thanks for all the replies. Good read and many different points of view.

To clarify, this charity doesn't just rely on the auction money. They do other types of fundraising year round, and THAT money is supposed to include staff salaries and overhead costs. This once a year auction event that uses the donations is supposed to be only for the cause but I know for a fact that it's not the case. Some of that money gets paid out in commission to the solicitors. So if I secured a golf package and it was successfully auctioned off for $200, I'd get a portion of that.

Normally I would've given it back but my main reason for asking and what I didn't want was some chump (or my manager) taking my commission from the three months that I worked. I had some really good stuff - concert tickets, vacation packages, spa treatments, resorts, sporting equipment, hotel stays, restaurants, etc all of which could amount to a nice sizable commission. Also, based on previous data from past auctions, some items would magically have no bids and they're just gone. I have a feeling some of the senior staff take one or two of the good stuff for themselves. Can't be confirmed but I can't imagine how a $300 valued dinner cruise can simply disappear from the system with no bids.

I also didn't sign this 15 page agreement. It was more like a handbook, there's no signature involved. They gave it to me as a way to follow rules. It was at my desk so I can't read it now. The only thing I signed was the form to get direct deposit on my payment.

 

[bigshot]

If someone has half a brain, they will instantly realize that it is absolutely impossible to rightly claim that 100% of donations go towards the cause.

But he states that the charity claimed that 100% of the money went to charitable organizations. I agree that it is reasonable to assume that some funds need to go to administration, but they seem to be less than honest about this. I worked with a former charity telemarketer and he said that they were trained to tell people that 100% of the funds went to the charity. They even told people to make the cheque out directly to the name of the charity, when in fact the charity would just end up cashing the cheque and sending 90% back to the telemarketers. This is deceitful and amounts to nothing more than theft by coercion. These guys were essentially running a racket, so I guess that having listened to his stories and learning about how much these guys were raking in, my sympathies with this organization the OP described as "ghetto" are limited.

 

[shakenbake]

An ROE is not a reference letter. Two completely different things.

An ROE is required by Service Canada for EI purposes. Most companies also use it as a formal record of employment (which it is).

A reference letter is completely optional (unless it was negotiated into your terms of employment or is part of a collective agreement). In the absence of that, no employer is required to give you one (or even confirm your employment over the phone for that matter). In such a case you could provide a copy of your employment letter and your ROE as proof of employment (but you better have a good answer when your potential employer wants to know why you previous employer won't give you a reference).

Exactly. That is what I was trying to convey.

 

[shakenbake]

The terms of employment, severance terms and all other paperwork is totally irrelevant to my point of view. Agreement or not .... he should give the files back in a timely manner. It's the right thing to do.

Oh, but it is, and legal experts would beg to differ with you. When does the employee's obligations end? Who owned the list? If it was not spelled out explicitly in an employment agreement, the former employer does not have much to enforce their request.

If the OP feels like it, and there is no employment agreement, or severance agreement in place to the contrary, he can do whatever he wants with the data. I know that wherever I have worked, the employment agreement is very explicit in what the employer and employee are responsible for, including intellectual and other property, as well as confidentiality and non-competition issues. without any of that legal stuff, the former employer can ask all they want, it depends on the OP's feelings and opinions as to what he wants to do.