Eric Lindros
- Thread starter 21pro
- Start date
Fair enough. Each player has nuances to their game, although Espo did use his size and strength to his advantage, hence to me, he's a power forward.blueline said:
My point is that Neely +/or Tocchet were nowhere near being the ones to "define" what a power forward was.
another note about Cam ....value wise I put him on par with Wendle so...
Cam=Wendle < Eric
in their prime
b d
oh memories of algebra
Cam=Wendle < Eric
in their prime
b d
oh memories of algebra
Dawgger said:
No hesitation, Cam Neely
He was dominating & would have put up monster career numbers had he not been kneed by that cheap shot artist Samuelson (i think thats who damaged Neely knees)
Lindros was a very talented huge man & was quite good in his prime, however he was not a great leader & was a victim of having million dollar talent and a ten cent head. (He let his parents get far too involved in dealings with the flyer's organization).
While no no has come right out and confirmed it, reading between the lines, it appeared his flyer teammates did not like / respect Lindros. That does not happen to great leaders
You are kidding right?shack said:
On the ice, Cam Neely defined the power forward. At 6 feet one and 215 pounds, Neely was as punishing to opponents with his body checks as he was rewarding to his teammates with his goal scoring. He became the archetype of the ultimate power position. In NHL scouts' vernacular, a "Cam Neely" player meant tenacity, teamwork and pucks in the net. When choosing players in the draft, GM's and scouts would often define a tough, skilled, hard hitting player as a Cam Neely type.
I am not saying he is the only one you should think of when you think power forward, but do put him in a class with the likes of Messiers and Gilles.
Also as for Neely defining brittle or fragile, whatever it was you said, the guy played through a very serious knee/hip condition all thanks to that idiot Samuelsson. He played 49 games the one season on one leg and scored 50 goals. You don't do that without having some tenacity in you.
Actually, no.blueline said:
I don't deny all the attributes you mention. My point is that unlike Bobby Orr who set new standards and criteria for what a defenceman should do, Neely didn't set any new standards. There were players before him who had similar style and skills, big strong guys who used their size to dominate the opposition and could put up good offensive stats. Aside from Espo and Gillies, Jean Beliveau was another power forward. He combined size, strength, and offensive talent to dominate. That's a power forward, is it not?
Therefore, in my mind, Neely didn't "define" the position because he wasn't the first to do so. He did his thing well, not doubt, he just wasn't the one to initiate that style of play. Compare it to Bobby Orr and Paul Coffey or Denis Potvin. A lot of similar attributes but Orr did it first so HE was the one to define the position, not Coffey or Potvin.
When I hear power forward Jean Beliveau does not come to mind. Size, strength and skill yes but not in the same manner as a Neely, Bertuzzi, Messier, Howe, Roberts, Kevin Stevens, Keith Tkachuk, Lindros, etc. Those type of players were punishing, they could deliver body checks and put the fear of God into an opposing player just by being on the ice, plus they had skill to go along with it. Beliveau was a terrific player but power forward - sorry I don't agree. So would you also classify Mario Lemieux a power forward because he was big and skilled? Another one, like Espo, who just doesn't fit the bill. I don't think many opposing players looked over their shoulders when Phil came on the ice. Only goalies, looking behind themselves at pucks in the net.shack said:
I never said Neely or anyone else defined the position Shack, or can lay claim to be the original PF. I merely said Neely was the protypical type power forward. When someone mentions PF you think of several players and Neely is one of them. I am not sure how you can dispute that. Google power forward like I have done a few times and Neely's name comes up with several others.shack said:As long as you're mentioning Messier and Howe you just proved my point that Neely wasn't the one who defined the position.
I just fail to see how you can lump Beliveau and Espo in with the PF's I mentioned. The style of play that Howe showed was very different from Beliveau or Espo. I am not sure Phil threw a body check in anger in his entire career. Big Jean, well he was known as a classy, gentlemanly player, two adjectives you cannot apply to Howe, Messier, Lindros, etc. It doesn't matter who was the first one and by the way who was the first one? Back in the day you never heard the term PF, you heard policeman like Ferguson, Kurtenbach.
Fair enough I said that, sorry. Then I will stick to my words because when I and others think PF, Neely comes to mind along with others, of course. Defined surely doesn't mean one and only or exclusive to. The role of PF is not exclusive to Neely but you cannot possibly argue that he does not belong in that company. When you define the role of a PF you can't tell me Neely doesn't fit that mold. So ok I said it and ok I truly mean it.shack said:
Like I mentioned before, google search PF and Cam Neely and see how the two are connected. Then read about how GMs and scouts would rate players as Cam Neely types. Was he the original, I don't know, but I never said he was. What if he wasn't, who was the first and what does it matter? If I mention goal scorer does that exclude Gretzky and Lemieux because Joe Malone scored what 44 in 22 games? So he was the first so he defines goal scorer? I just don't understand what your point is. Mine is that Neely was a PF in every sense of the definition.
I guess you missed the 87 Canada Cup when Gretzky and Lemieux were centered by Hawerchuck?big dogie said:
I think Neely was a great player, but the only guys who I would even consider taking ahead of Gretzky would be Orr or Lemieux.jimmyt said:
Well, the Thread is comparing Neely to Lindros. I would NOT take him over Gretz, Lemieux or Orr. Heck, I wouldnt take him over Howe or Messier either. That said, compared to Lindros, Neely would beat ole Eric to death in almost every dimension. Cam in his prime was fast. Cam could hit every bit as hard as Eric, but really was less brittle. His injury with Samulleson was the only one that really hurt him, and it killed his career, but not before he still got 50 more goals on one leg. Cam has it all over Eric in heart, Cam has it all over Eric in class.
I can say a little of this because I watched Eric in Junior from seasons ticket seats in Oshawa. I liked Eric then, and he didn't suck as an NHL player, but he never seemed to be able to meet the promise. Cam exceeded his promise and abilities by a good margin. Eric never met the promise that was expected of him, and while the concussions are the blame for some of it, I think a lot of it is in mismanagement, a lack of heart and a tentativeness that Eric plays with now. It is sad, for the kid had the tools.....and the mean streak.
AS for what is a power forward, it is a WINGER ( Centers are not to be in the corners mucking ) who can dig out the puck and punish people for having it, skate like the wind, hit like a truck, and score 50 a season.
The prototype. Gordie Howe. Everyone else is just looking to be as good......(and Messier is the closest in that regard)
I can say a little of this because I watched Eric in Junior from seasons ticket seats in Oshawa. I liked Eric then, and he didn't suck as an NHL player, but he never seemed to be able to meet the promise. Cam exceeded his promise and abilities by a good margin. Eric never met the promise that was expected of him, and while the concussions are the blame for some of it, I think a lot of it is in mismanagement, a lack of heart and a tentativeness that Eric plays with now. It is sad, for the kid had the tools.....and the mean streak.
AS for what is a power forward, it is a WINGER ( Centers are not to be in the corners mucking ) who can dig out the puck and punish people for having it, skate like the wind, hit like a truck, and score 50 a season.
The prototype. Gordie Howe. Everyone else is just looking to be as good......(and Messier is the closest in that regard)
I believe Alex Ovechkin fits in the same category as power forward that can score.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2NJipsmFMA
I wonder if the leafs would be interested in him when he becomes a RFA? apparently, Washington won't be able to afford him... hence, why his contract wasn't extended like Crosby's was this summer. clearly, Ovechkin's going somewhere.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2NJipsmFMA
I wonder if the leafs would be interested in him when he becomes a RFA? apparently, Washington won't be able to afford him... hence, why his contract wasn't extended like Crosby's was this summer. clearly, Ovechkin's going somewhere.
heh..i can't believe how far the discussion went when I threw the name Cam Neely out there.. i think you guys all have valid opinions on this one, and I, like many others, would take Neely over Lindros anyday, twice on Sundays.
Eric Lindros the Vince Carter of the NHL. All the talent in the world, 10 cent desire and brain, no leadership skills, shows up when he wants, and fragile like a Porcelain doll.
Eric Lindros the Vince Carter of the NHL. All the talent in the world, 10 cent desire and brain, no leadership skills, shows up when he wants, and fragile like a Porcelain doll.
21pro said:
LOL... Ovechkin going somewhere?? Geez.. would YOU EVER let a guy like that go for any reason at all?
There is no way on this green earth that he's going anywhere. Washington can't keep him? what do you mean they can't afford to? that is not true. They freed up salary by trading zubrus, and now they've got nylander for 4 yrs..he's there to play with ovech...
It would be the stupidest move in the history of the franchise to let ovechkin go, and it is not gonna happen.
Everybody saying Lindros doesn't deserve to be there simply because he wouldn't play for a couple of teams that drafted him are overreacting. You may not like the fact that he did that, but in both cases he told the teams beforehand they'd be wasting their pick if they chose him. Also, he wasn't under contract to either the OHA or the NHL at the time of those drafts and really didn't owe them anything.
But even if we assume it was a horrible thing on his part, does that really mean anything when assessing his Hall of Fame credentials? I don't think Lindros accomplished enough to be there (I don't think Neely did either), but he should be judged based on his on-ice play only.
Look at some of the people in the Hall:
Bobby Hull: quoted as making pro-Hitler comments
Denis Potvin: charged with beating his wife
Serge Savard: drunk driver
Bobby Clarke: fired somebody when they had cancer
Borje Salming: cocaine user
Mario Lemieux: the Dan Quinn hotel room incident; often refused to play for Canada internationally
Harold Ballard: where do you start?; did time in jail, ignored rampant pedophilia at MLG.
This ain't the Hall of Role Models.
But even if we assume it was a horrible thing on his part, does that really mean anything when assessing his Hall of Fame credentials? I don't think Lindros accomplished enough to be there (I don't think Neely did either), but he should be judged based on his on-ice play only.
Look at some of the people in the Hall:
Bobby Hull: quoted as making pro-Hitler comments
Denis Potvin: charged with beating his wife
Serge Savard: drunk driver
Bobby Clarke: fired somebody when they had cancer
Borje Salming: cocaine user
Mario Lemieux: the Dan Quinn hotel room incident; often refused to play for Canada internationally
Harold Ballard: where do you start?; did time in jail, ignored rampant pedophilia at MLG.
This ain't the Hall of Role Models.
Forsberg got traded before he came over and Sundin got traded before 5 years of pro experience. It does happen. Young elite prospects getting traded or moving from team to team, that is.slamtart said:
And this doesn't mean he's going anywhere soon. But I am sure the Caps won't keep him for his entire career as his draw will be greater to another team that can better pay him.
