Election in Spain

[borg007]

The reason that terrorism flourishes is b/c of the disparity of wealth and level of poverty prevalent in the Middle Eastern countries.

So how do you explain the fact that Osam and most of his top men are millionaires? So it the guy responsible for the air India bombing.

The pick extremists have with the west is not money but our lack of morality. Things like this board, alcoholic beverages, not praying to Ala, the separation of church and state and so on. That is the main reason for terrorism.

 

[seven]

So how do you explain the fact that Osam and most of his top men are millionaires? So it the guy responsible for the air India bombing.

Those are the terrorist leaders and last time I checked they aren't the ones strapping bombs to themselves.

You need money to finance and train terrorists/terrorist operations. But you also need "poverty, hopelessness, and a sense of despair" among your pool of operative terrorists so that you can brainwash them and redirect their hate towards your goal.

 

[borg007]

Those are the terrorist leaders and last time I checked they aren't the ones strapping bombs to themselves.

You need money to finance and train terrorists/terrorist operations. But you also need "poverty, hopelessness, and a sense of despair" among your pool of operative terrorists so that you can brainwash them and redirect their hate towards your goal.

So the solution is easy put them all on welfare and they will not mind our lack of "faithfulness".

And who ever said that money was the root of all evil?

 

[ocean976124]

Those are the terrorist leaders and last time I checked they aren't the ones strapping bombs to themselves.

You need money to finance and train terrorists/terrorist operations. But you also need "poverty, hopelessness, and a sense of despair" among your pool of operative terrorists so that you can brainwash them and redirect their hate towards your goal.

That seems to be the majority of suicide bombers. However a few of the 9/11 hijackers were actually kind of middle class men...

 

[ocean976124]

The big lie is that military operations do not target civilians.
That's just political rhetoric to placate the people. The military is designed to win at all costs and wherever possible they will target civilians when they can get away with it.
That's reality and that is why the military option is NEVER the right one.

Do bad decisions get made during war? Yes. Do taregts get misidentified? Yes. Do some commanders and troops commit crimes? Unfortunately yes.
But to pretend that it is actual policy to target civilians is nonsense.
Have you ever talked to an officer from the US military? Ethics are taken very seriously, appropriate targeting is considered of the utmost importance.

 

[ocean976124]

I think this is exactly what the Spanish people just did - voted from their heart against a cynical leader who was just appeasing the US and making the Spanish situation a lot more dangerous thn it needed to be.

IMO, thats like blaming the woman for being raped because she was "dressed like a slut" or "led the guy on." Nothing excuses rape, nothing excuses terrorism.

 

[seven]

So the solution is easy put them all on welfare and they will not mind our lack of "faithfulness".

And who ever said that money was the root of all evil?

I never said the solution to the terrorism problem was "easy". If the Middle Eastern countries had the same standard of living as Canada there would be no terrorism problem.

As jaded so wisely put it, bombing Middle Eastern infrastructure is counterproductive towards Western goals of non-terror. That just causes more "poverty, hopelessness, and a sense of despair" among the Arabs and the cycle of hatred repeats itself. Why not be proactive in your approach to terrorism? Take away the environment that breeds terrorism and funnel the money that is being used on bombing and occupation to help build economies and a better future with the Middle Eastern countries.

ocean976124
That seems to be the majority of suicide bombers. However a few of the 9/11 hijackers were actually kind of middle class men...

There are exceptions to every rule, but generally it is much easier to brainwash someone that has nothing to live for. Give a person hope and prosperity and chances are they will not become full of hate which is the fuel needed for terrorism.

 

[ocean976124]

You just don't get it, do you genius? Can you really not see the difference between acting in accordance with your best interests within the confines of a capitalistic market versus taking what you want forcefully by bombing the shit out of a country?? One is acceptable and the other isn't. This shouldn't be a hard concept to grasp, even for a close-minded right wing hawk.

Obviously international politics is lost on you. So a mafia member decides he doesn't want a big money maker wacked and that somehow gives him the moral high ground? Oh please. This isn't sophomore year political science, this is the real world...
Right-wing? I'm not right wing. There's a huge difference between being conservative and being right-wing just as there's a huge difference between being liberal and being a communist. War is always a failure but in the end its sometimes the lesser of two possible future failures.

 

[KBear]

If the Middle Eastern countries had the same standard of living as Canada there would be no terrorism problem.

Don’t agree with this. We have home grown terrorist too. There was the guys that blew up the building on Oklahoma, the sniper, Unabomber, guy that killed all the ladies in the Quebec school. Sure it would be a long list.

There will always be nut cases and cults willing to do stupid things, just now they can travel around the world and do more damage then in the past.

Osama’s cult is similar in many ways to the cult in California that committed suicide in hopes of going to live with aliens on some asteroid. In that they are f#$ked up people desperate to belong and following some cause, any cause. Just sadly, Osama wants his followers to take some of us with them.

 

[The_Jaded_One]

Obviously international politics is lost on you. So a mafia member decides he doesn't want a big money maker wacked and that somehow gives him the moral high ground? Oh please.

It doesn't give him the moral high ground but his passive actions don't put him in the wrong. Notice the key difference...

This isn't sophomore year political science, this is the real world...

Question: How many country leaders want GWB ousted?

Answer: Every country leader except for three. Bush's foreign policy and decision to go to war against Iraq was/is a total disaster not to mention unethical.

Right-wing? I'm not right wing. There's a huge difference between being conservative and being right-wing just as there's a huge difference between being liberal and being a communist. War is always a failure but in the end its sometimes the lesser of two possible future failures.

The USA had no right to attack Iraq, and as you say, did it in accordance with its own best (economic) interests. It was an immoral decision. We are not talking about the lesser of two evils here...

 

[seven]

Don’t agree with this. We have home grown terrorist too. There was the guys that blew up the building on Oklahoma, the sniper, Unabomber, guy that killed all the ladies in the Quebec school. Sure it would be a long list.

Those aren't terrorist groups. For the most part your list contains fucked up individuals acting on their own w/o an affiliation to any group. You will always have mental instability/madness within any society.

Osama’s cult is similar in many ways to the cult in California that committed suicide in hopes of going to live with aliens on some asteroid.

That's not a terrorist group either. The purpose of David Korash's religious cult was not to use terror to effect a change. It was just mass suicide.

Anyways, the point still remains that if you increase prosperity and hope you will greatly decrease hate and terrorism.

 

[KBear]

The point was that you will always have F#$ked up people desperate to lead, and F#$ked up people desperate to belong and follow. Education and prosperity my help, but I don’t think it is a big issue in whether or not people participate in groups like this. People who are educated may start to see the error of their ways if the leader was asking his followers to start killing people though.

 

[DATYdude]

Oh Jaded One -

I agree that the decision to invade Iraq was immoral in that it was based on at best erroneous info and at worst outright lies. But the indeceision that did and would have continued to keep Saddam Hussein in power was no better, as it was based on greed, false optimism, and the belief that even after 10 years of sanctions, with a little more pressure Hussein would have yeilded.

Despite the illegitimate reasons given for the invasion, has it not occurred to you that Iraq is better off without Saddam Hussein? Yesterday was the anniversary (15th?) of the chemical attack by Saddam Hussein against Kurds at Hallabjah, in which 5000 people were killed in an afternoon. It was the first time the Jurds could publicly mark the occasion. If you've seen the pictures it is unbelievably awful. Those 5000 were a drop in the bucket for Saddam, who was said to have killed an average of 10,000 people every year.

I still think that there is a stash of chemical weapons around which belonged to Hussein's regime. You don't gas 5000 Kurds in one day and then say, OK that was fun, I'll just give up my chemical weapons now, not if you're Saddam Hussein. Those weapons are somewhere in Jordan or Syria.


It's too bad the US didn't just say "this guy has got to go, he's a mass murderer." There are no governments as bad as that anywhere in the world today, and if I'm wrong I hope the world has the guts to do something about it.

 

[johnhenrygalt]

That's not a terrorist group either. The purpose of David Korash's religious cult was not to use terror to effect a change. It was just mass suicide.

David Koresh's cult did not commit mass suicide and they weren't in California.

 

[onthebottom]

Everyone Forgets

That doing nothing was not really an option in Iraq (although it seems to be the primary commitment of European and Canadian Foreign policy).

The UN would have lifted sanctions against Iraq (at the urging of France, Russia and Germany) when the weapons inspectors had certified (if there is such a thing) that Iraq no longer had WMD. This would have allowed France, Germany and Russia to get paid on their contracts with Iraq (I have no problem with this) and Iraq to reconstitute its WMD program. It is not a matter of opinion if Iraq could build WMD (they have) or if they would use them (they have) or if Iraq would invade a neighbor (they have).

In a post 9/11 world Bush was faced with a choice, allow Saddam out of his box (sanctions) or take him out. He made his choice (the right one) because he was the only person who could make that decision and enforce it. Europe was too focused on it's contracts with Iraq to do the right thing and too impotent militarily to be a credible force. Europe can't even police it's own continent for *ucks sake. The rest of the world is so obsessed with US power that any display of that power causes a mass case of Napoleon complex.

Spain has joined France as one of the great appeasement nations of history. The French appeased the Germans and now the Spanish of appeased the Terrorists. What a proud moment for world socialism. May we all be poorer and less free.

Most world leaders would like to see Bush defeated in November because they would like to see the US retreat from it's unilateralist policy and fall in line with the do-nothing UN. It's not going to happen, even if a flip-flopping socialist from Mass. gets elected.

OTB

 

[KBear]

The difference between a cult and a terrorist group are that terrorists groups kill people. Otherwise, they are the same. The mission of these groups is irrelevant. It is just a group of fucked up people following some/any cause. There is no way to appease them or change their ways because their mission, whatever it is, is just a way to solidify them as a group. The cult mentality, leaders/followers, is the only reason they are together. To try to figure out how to appease them is pointless. The only way to deal with terrorist is to put them in jail or kill them.

 

[onthebottom]

No Armor

I'm sorry, but I don't see OBL out marking the gypsies, the homosexuals and the Jews for death. I don't see OBL trying to create/extend an Empire, I don't see OBL marching a significant percentage of his own population to the gas chambers.

Just the Jews, and he uses cowardly terrorist methods.

While I do not agree with OBL means or methods, I will not lower myself to OBL level by adopting his methods to ensure that my "message" wins..

OTB pats Winston on the head.

The greater question is "why do we need to engage OBL at all?" The reality is, if you understand what is driving him, and turn it around, does what he is asking for really seem outlandish?..

Because he is killing innocent people, have you not been paying attention?

He wants: Foreign armies out of the Middle East
Foreign influence out of middle eastern politics
foreign rule out of the middle east..

He wants a fundamentalist Islamic society
He wants to expel the Jews from the Middle East
He believes in killing people as they ride to work in trains
........

Now reverse the situation. Would the USA tolerate Saudi Arabia giving secret support the the Bush Administration so that elections were cancelled and Bush became President for Life? Would the USA support or tolerate a cabinet dominated by Iraqi "advisors" that ensured that Iraqi companies got the best deals, the best contracts in the USA? Would the USA tolerate having Afganistan come in to provide "security", burn cash producing crops, and impose a new constitution?.

I think I smell a Tool of the Week post!

So, just how do you see compare OBL to Hitler again?

He's killing innocent people because he's on a megalomaniac mission to have sociality dominated by the Arian, oops, Islamic purists. While OBL doesn't have the armor or industrial complex to do the damage Hitler did he will die in a hole in the same cowardly way that Hitler did. A fitting end.

OTB

 

[seven]

David Koresh's cult did not commit mass suicide and they weren't in California.

Okay, it's hard to keep track of all the whacked religious cults but the point is that whoever's cult it was it wasn't a terrorist group. They weren't trying to coerce through terror.

Originally posted by KB

The difference between a cult and a terrorist group are that terrorists groups kill people.

Pretty big difference I'd say.

Wiston

In short, Bunny, you are a shortsighted ass, and a very typical reason why Americans are reviled, dispised, and not respected in the majority of places they touch.

It was satire to drive a point home.

OTB
<clip>
That doing nothing was not really an option in Iraq (although it seems to be the primary commitment of European and Canadian Foreign policy).
<clip>
It is not a matter of opinion if Iraq could build WMD (they have) or if they would use them (they have) or if Iraq would invade a neighbor (they have).
<clip>

Militarily, Iraq was totally contained and under control; the US had them toeing the line. Iraq didn't have any WMD and the administration knew it!! The reason the Great US of A attacked Iraq was b/c Dick Cheney was pulling the strings big time at the top and wanted the contracts. Stop kidding yourself and get informed.

 

[onthebottom]

....
Militarily, Iraq was totally contained and under control; the US had them toeing the line. Iraq didn't have any WMD and the administration knew it!! The reason the Great US of A attacked Iraq was b/c Dick Cheney was pulling the strings big time at the top and wanted the contracts. Stop kidding yourself and get informed.

They were contained by the sanctions, which were going away (please read THEN respond).

The administration didn't know it. Perhaps they should have, another argument entirely, but they didn't.

Conspiracy theories are so tiring, take your tin foil hat off, grow up and educate yourself.

OTB

 

[seven]

The administration didn't know it. Perhaps they should have, another argument entirely, but they didn't.

Conspiracy theories are so tiring, take your tin foil hat off, grow up and educate yourself.

Don't be an idiot. It is common knowledge that Bush lied about the WMD angle so he could justify the war. You do know about that state of the union address where he lied his ass off, right?