Toronto Passions

Drunk Sex/Rape Question?

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onca/doc/2005/2005canlii253/2005canlii253.htmlI

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onca/doc/2005/2005canlii253/2005canlii253.html

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[1]**** **** **** **** ******The appellant was tried by a judge sitting without a jury on a ten count indictment.** He was convicted on four counts and acquitted on five.*

[2]**** **** **** **** ******The appellant appeals from his convictions.** Counsel advanced several arguments.** His primary submission is that the trial judge made several errors in the approach he took to the assessment of the credibility of the complainant and the appellant.** Counsel contends that these errors resulted in a skewed analysis of the credibility of the two main witnesses and necessitates the quashing of the convictions.

[3]**** **** **** **** ******I would allow the appeal.** The trial judge’s reasons are exemplary in many respects.** However, they do demonstrate that the trial judge failed to give effect to his implicit finding that the complainant had a motive to falsely accuse the appellant and failed to give any effect to his finding that the complainant lied on material matters during her testimony.** These errors necessitate the quashing of the convictions and the ordering of a new trial.

yung_dood said:
My question is what if the girl lies though? Who will get the benefit of the doubt? I'm not talking about forcing someone to have sex with you. I'm talking about the few vindictive females out there that are looking to cash in or get some attention.
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When a person tells the truth the story never changes. If she lied as you claim the more she tells the story the more it will change. By the time it gets to court she wont have a clue as to what the original lie was. YOur lawyer will be able to point to all the mistakes and contradictory statements she has made.
Judges as experts in human behavior. Just tell the truth in court, your story will never change.



this case might help answer yor questions:
 
Miss Jessica Lee said:
We've known for a long time that "no" doesn't mean "yes".

Silence also doesn't mean "yes".

I'd go with anything less than enthusiastic consent means "no".

Intoxication is never equal to consent.

Enthusiastic consent is super sexy.
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The problem many of us guys have is that you rarely specifically ask if someone wants to have sex. It just happens - you start making out, hands wander, etc. You don't stop to ask permission as it ruins the moment. So when that happens when we're sober and the girl is reciprocating, we know it's a clear "yes". However, when both parties are drunk, we assume it's a "yes" but our judgement could be reading the situation wrong. Obviously if she's pushing you off or saying "no" then you leave her alone. Same if she's passed out or not reacting at all. But I've been in a couple situations where the girl is super drunk but is still kissing and touching my crotch but kind of sloppily and all over the place - she could barely hold herself up. I always err on the side of caution and back off but I can understand where some guys could get in trouble.
 
If she consents to the sex, no you will not be charged. If she does not provide you with any verbal communication but provides you with a non-verbal communication and had the actus mens rea to give you a sign that she wants it, then you will still be charged just because she did not consent. You will be charged if she states no, or gave you a non-verbal sign of stating no. It also depends on the witnesses, who both parties speak to concerning the matter and both stories. An investigations will be launched, but I doubt she will press charges against you, just because both parties were under the influence of intoxication. Not just one.! If you're worried.
 
NHFL said:
Will you be charged? More than likely. .
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Police don't charge you unless they have a reasonable evidence. It's not like a women calls the cop station and says "so and so raped me yesterday", then they drive over to your house, cuff you, put you in the back of a cruiser and say "your being charged with rape because this lady named Suzie told us you did it."

Look how long it took them to charge gomeshi.
 
yung_dood said:
My question is what if the girl lies though? Who will get the benefit of the doubt? I'm not talking about forcing someone to have sex with you. I'm talking about the few vindictive females out there that are looking to cash in or get some attention.
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Jian Ghomeshi is likely wondering the same thing.
 
black booty lover said:
Police don't charge you unless they have a reasonable evidence. It's not like a women calls the cop station and says "so and so raped me yesterday", then they drive over to your house, cuff you, put you in the back of a cruiser and say "your being charged with rape because this lady named Suzie told us you did it."

Look how long it took them to charge gomeshi.
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Let's just agree to disagree.

I can say that I have heard too many stories of exactly the scenario you describe - Suzy goes to the police station, complains, shows a minor bruise or cut, police go to male's house and indeed charge him. Their view is "charge first and let the courts sort it out."

As for your Jian Gomeshi example it is flawed by one simple fact - NO WOMAN CAME FORWARD TO POLICE PRIOR TO HIM BEING FIRED!!

See link from Global news here for a timeline - http://globalnews.ca/news/1647091/t...egations-arise-after-cbc-fires-jian-ghomeshi/

Note particularly

1) "Around 3:30 p.m. Thursday October 30 – Toronto Police Chief Bill Blair holds a press conference to ask anyone who has been a victim of sexual assault to come forward to the police. Blair said his force isn’t actively investigating Ghomeshi because no one has come forward to police."

2) "Tuesday, November 4... Toronto’s police chief renews his call for victims of sexual assault to come forward. He refused to say whether investigators have received additional evidence or if any more victims with allegations against Ghomeshi have come forward since the three women confirmed on Saturday.

3) "Wednesday, November 26 – Ghomeshi surrenders to Toronto Police and is charged with four counts of sexual assault and one count of “overcome resistance – choking.”

Given the high profile nature of the case, the fact that Gomeshi is well-known and likely not going anywhere and the fact that the police wanted to ensure as many victims as possible came forward, I think their timing is well within reason.
 
Marla said:
You are a gentleman indeed. Not many men would have responded this way. Good for you.
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Okay, maybe I wouldn't have pass mustard completely unscathed but on the bright side - I wouldn't have taken any pictures !

There has to be joint responsibility between two consenting adults and although I think drugging or raping a semi-comatose woman is deplorable - the concept of rejecting advances because you met a woman in a bar is going overboard. Basically, a woman should have the ability and freedom to say 'No' but this concept of going after male because one or two days later you feel guilt or second thoughts is crazy. Women have struggled a long way in society to be recognized as equal to men, letting men treat you as a child incapable of making a decision seems to be a convenient backward step.

For those who are nervous, maybe this will help:

Fallout48f9e64d7d9ec.jpg
 
yung_dood said:
Let's say, you're drinking with a girl and you end up having sex with her. If she turns around and says you raped her even though you both knew what you were doing while being drunk (meaning both parties willingly partook) is there still a good chance of being charged with rape?
I was told 7 years ago that the law does not favor men in this case.
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The real question is: can you flip it around and charge her with rape? After all, you were drunk too, and never verbally consented.

It's such bullshit anyway. Since when did we allow people to get away with not being responsible for their actions when they're drunk? People do stuff they regret while drunk all the time. We don't give people a pass when they drive drunk. Why would we not do the same with people who have sex? If you don't know your drinking limit before rational thought leaves you, then it's your own damn fault!

Oh geez, I guess I just blamed the "victim", didn't I?
 
Titalian said:
I'd say you'd be within your rights, if she had an orgasim during the drunken encounter !!! If she 's still mad at you after that, well your fuked !!!
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I assume you are joking. If she doesn't specifically agree he could be in big trouble. A "drunk" person cannot agree or consent even if both are drunk
 
wait for it said:
If you want to be accused of being hetronormitive.

Great now I have to wash my hands for typing such a bullshit PC word.
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Well people can stroke out 'male' & 'female' and just go with partner 1 & partner 2.

Thanks for the vocabulary lesson. My first look at the word I thought hetronormitive was car driver who possesses both genitalia.
 
trtinajax said:
I assume you are joking. If she doesn't specifically agree he could be in big trouble. A "drunk" person cannot agree or consent even if both are drunk
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But a drunk person can get in a car, kill someone and be held responsible for it, right? So, tell me why a drunk person can't give consent and be held responsible for her actions?
 
NHFL said:
Let's just agree to disagree.

I can say that I have heard too many stories of exactly the scenario you describe - Suzy goes to the police station, complains, shows a minor bruise or cut, police go to male's house and indeed charge him. Their view is "charge first and let the courts sort it out."

As for your Jian Gomeshi example it is flawed by one simple fact - NO WOMAN CAME FORWARD TO POLICE PRIOR TO HIM BEING FIRED!!

See link from Global news here for a timeline - http://globalnews.ca/news/1647091/t...egations-arise-after-cbc-fires-jian-ghomeshi/

Note particularly

1) "Around 3:30 p.m. Thursday October 30 – Toronto Police Chief Bill Blair holds a press conference to ask anyone who has been a victim of sexual assault to come forward to the police. Blair said his force isn’t actively investigating Ghomeshi because no one has come forward to police."

2) "Tuesday, November 4... Toronto’s police chief renews his call for victims of sexual assault to come forward. He refused to say whether investigators have received additional evidence or if any more victims with allegations against Ghomeshi have come forward since the three women confirmed on Saturday.

3) "Wednesday, November 26 – Ghomeshi surrenders to Toronto Police and is charged with four counts of sexual assault and one count of “overcome resistance – choking.”

Given the high profile nature of the case, the fact that Gomeshi is well-known and likely not going anywhere and the fact that the police wanted to ensure as many victims as possible came forward, I think their timing is well within reason.
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Accept you forgot one important fact, the women "that came forward" was probably the women that had the assault on video. That's why gomeshi got fired. Usually there is more to it than "he did it".
 
Why doesn't the girl ever have to get consent from the guy?? If two people have sex while drunk nobody gave or received consent.
I'm not referring to having drunk sex with someone whose passed out or forcing yourself on another.
 
yung_dood said:
Why doesn't the girl ever have to get consent from the guy?? If two people have sex while drunk nobody gave or received consent.
I'm not referring to having drunk sex with someone whose passed out or forcing yourself on another.
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We should just make the PREEMPTIVE STRIKE and charge her with rape. Joking aside. It is just too much of a pain having to deal with guilty until proving she lied. Too many women are making false claims....because he is a dog, or he didn't call the next day like he said. Not that there aren't legitimate claims, but there needs to be stricter rules or laws that punish the women that are proven they have made a false claim.
 
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