Drunk Defence

TeeJay

Well-known member
Jun 20, 2011
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west gta
I have always argued for this and now it is law
It never made sense to me how a woman could argue in court she was too drunk to consent but the court denied the mans argument he was too drunk to realize she was too drunk to consent
Esp if two (or more) people are all drinking insane amounts of alcohol to the point of blacking out

Well Canada top court now will ALLOW a drunk defence to rape (sexual assault) and overturned the cases under appeal (rightfully so imo)

Womens groups are furious as now some responsibility is being passed back to rape "victims"

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/women-s-...ruling-but-concern-called-overblown-1.4969892

The decision still leaves the onus on an accused to come up with expert and other evidence to prove they were in a state of automatism to raise the intoxication defence successfully, Zwibel said. Simply claiming to have been drunk wouldn't cut it.
 
If you can't use "I was drunk" as a defense to drunk driving then why should it be allowed for other crimes?
 
If you can't use "I was drunk" as a defense to drunk driving then why should it be allowed for other crimes?

You actually could now... with this ruling you could argue you were too drunk to realize you would be too drunk to drive

Having said that yeah if it actually did happen the bar and everyone serving in it would be sued out of existence
Probably criminally liable as well
Thats why they have the whole smart serve courses etc

Its diff at a private home (esp when kids are serving kids)
 
You actually could now... with this ruling you could argue you were too drunk to realize you would be too drunk to drive

Having said that yeah if it actually did happen the bar and everyone serving in it would be sued out of existence
Probably criminally liable as well
Thats why they have the whole smart serve courses etc

Its diff at a private home (esp when kids are serving kids)

I read a piece where it is a much narrower ruling.

Basically there is a condition that is caused by certain psychotropic drugs like mushrooms that mirrors an insanity defense.

And alcohol cannot cause this to happen.

So no if you get drunk you are still responsible. The press got it wrong.
 
Being drunk should only be a defense if someone else forced you to drink to much. If the first drink causes the second and so on, you are a problem, not a victim...
 
Being drunk should only be a defense if someone else forced you to drink to much. If the first drink causes the second and so on, you are a problem, not a victim...

Is that also true for a woman who drank too much and was 'too drunk' to consent to sex?
 
Well Canada top court now will ALLOW a drunk defence to rape (sexual assault) and overturned the cases under appeal (rightfully so imo)

I believe you will find it was the ONCA (Ontario Court of Appeals).
 
I believe you will find it was the ONCA (Ontario Court of Appeals)
You beat me to it. I think OP meant Ontario's top court.

Also, I dont think this would ever stand against a Canada Supreme court challenge, but thats just me
 
You beat me to it. I think OP meant Ontario's top court.

Also, I dont think this would ever stand against a Canada Supreme court challenge, but thats just me

Not just that, but the O.P. does not seem to be well informed on what the ruling is actually about/intended to be used for.

A short version, copied/edited ....

“I've seen a lot of people outraged -- understandably -- by yesterday's headlines saying that "the Ontario Court of Appeal rules intoxication can be used as a defence in sexual assault and violent crime cases". This headline is incredibly misleading (looking at you CP24 and MPP Jill Andrew). I slogged through the 110 page decision, so before you share petitions or try to fight this, there are some important parts of the decision you should know):

(...it is virtually impossible to use being drunk as a defence to sexual assault, even after yesterday's ruling)

1. There were 2 cases dealt with in yesterday's decision, neither one of them involved sexual assault OR alcohol. They involved murder and aggravated assault as a result of hallucinations (more on that later).

2. Being intoxicated or very intoxicated is not a defence to most crimes, including sexual assault and other violent crimes. This was not changed by yesterday's ruling.

3. The only type of intoxication that can be used as a defence is "intoxication akin to automatism". What does that mean? It refers to someone who is so intoxicated that they no longer have any free will and their mind and body are totally out of their control.

4. The law that was overturned yesterday said that people were responsible for violent crimes even if they had no control or understanding that they were committing them, so long it was as a result of self-induced intoxication. This includes prescription medicine, illegal drugs, and potentially alcohol. However the Court also noted that there is evidence that it is physiologically impossible for alcohol to make someone intoxicated enough for the defence of extreme intoxication to apply. To argue this defence, you have to provide a medical expert witness to show that you had no control over yourself at the time of the offence. It's an extremely difficult defence to make out.

5. The reason the law was overturned was that it was punishing people for actions that they were not morally responsible for. This violates the principles of fundamental justice. Notably, the Canadian Civil Liberties Association was one of the groups fighting to get the law overturned.

6. So what kinds of cases are we talking about here? The first case concluded yesterday (R v Chan) dealt with a teenager who took magic mushrooms. The drugs caused a severe reaction (likely due to an undiagnosed brain injury) and he broke into his father's house, killed his father, and attempted to kill his father's partner. When police arrested him they said he "had super strength" and was acting extremely erratically. The partner's evidence suggested he had no idea who they were or what was happening.

The second case (R v Sullivan) dealt with a man who was taking prescription medicine to help quit smoking. One of the side effects of the medicine was psychosis. He reacted poorly to the pills, having hallucinations, and eventually he attempted suicide by taking 30-80 of the pills. This caused a severe psychotic episode where he thought his mom was an alien trying to kill him, so he stabbed her. Fortunately she survived the incident.

The way the law was, both of these men would be guilty and have to go to jail. That's why it was overturned. It's a complicated, difficult part of the law, and I totally understand why people are upset when they first hear it, especially people without any legal training. Hopefully this has helped clarify some of what's happening. The petitions to appeal the decision are asking for both men to be convicted. If you think that's just, then do as you see fit, but please understand what is really happening in this case, and don't make decisions based on misleading headlines.”
 
Not just that, but the O.P. does not seem to be well informed on what the ruling is actually about/intended to be used for.

A short version, copied/edited ....

“I've seen a lot of people outraged -- understandably -- by yesterday's headlines saying that "the Ontario Court of Appeal rules intoxication can be used as a defence in sexual assault and violent crime cases". This headline is incredibly misleading (looking at you CP24 and MPP Jill Andrew). I slogged through the 110 page decision, so before you share petitions or try to fight this, there are some important parts of the decision you should know):

(...it is virtually impossible to use being drunk as a defence to sexual assault, even after yesterday's ruling)

1. There were 2 cases dealt with in yesterday's decision, neither one of them involved sexual assault OR alcohol. They involved murder and aggravated assault as a result of hallucinations (more on that later).

2. Being intoxicated or very intoxicated is not a defence to most crimes, including sexual assault and other violent crimes. This was not changed by yesterday's ruling.

3. The only type of intoxication that can be used as a defence is "intoxication akin to automatism". What does that mean? It refers to someone who is so intoxicated that they no longer have any free will and their mind and body are totally out of their control.

4. The law that was overturned yesterday said that people were responsible for violent crimes even if they had no control or understanding that they were committing them, so long it was as a result of self-induced intoxication. This includes prescription medicine, illegal drugs, and potentially alcohol. However the Court also noted that there is evidence that it is physiologically impossible for alcohol to make someone intoxicated enough for the defence of extreme intoxication to apply. To argue this defence, you have to provide a medical expert witness to show that you had no control over yourself at the time of the offence. It's an extremely difficult defence to make out.

5. The reason the law was overturned was that it was punishing people for actions that they were not morally responsible for. This violates the principles of fundamental justice. Notably, the Canadian Civil Liberties Association was one of the groups fighting to get the law overturned.

6. So what kinds of cases are we talking about here? The first case concluded yesterday (R v Chan) dealt with a teenager who took magic mushrooms. The drugs caused a severe reaction (likely due to an undiagnosed brain injury) and he broke into his father's house, killed his father, and attempted to kill his father's partner. When police arrested him they said he "had super strength" and was acting extremely erratically. The partner's evidence suggested he had no idea who they were or what was happening.

The second case (R v Sullivan) dealt with a man who was taking prescription medicine to help quit smoking. One of the side effects of the medicine was psychosis. He reacted poorly to the pills, having hallucinations, and eventually he attempted suicide by taking 30-80 of the pills. This caused a severe psychotic episode where he thought his mom was an alien trying to kill him, so he stabbed her. Fortunately she survived the incident.

The way the law was, both of these men would be guilty and have to go to jail. That's why it was overturned. It's a complicated, difficult part of the law, and I totally understand why people are upset when they first hear it, especially people without any legal training. Hopefully this has helped clarify some of what's happening. The petitions to appeal the decision are asking for both men to be convicted. If you think that's just, then do as you see fit, but please understand what is really happening in this case, and don't make decisions based on misleading headlines.”

Two thoughts:

1) I n most of the cases: are they kidding?
2) In case of "sex consent": I can understand that it is a fair rule if the girl was so drunk she gave consent without understanding it and the guy was so drunk that he did not understand that the girl was to drunk to make an informed decision. In this case the onus of prove should first go to the girl (to prove that she was too drunk to give the informed consent) and, then to the guy to prove that he was too drunk to understand that the girl was too drunk to give the consent. If the girl can prove that and the guy cannot - it can lead to a guilty verdict. Otherwise - not guilty.
 
Fortunately I don't drink, and I don't have sex with any woman that has had any alcohol, even if it's a sip of wine. Just not worth the potential of a false accusation.
 
I read a piece where it is a much narrower ruling.

Basically there is a condition that is caused by certain psychotropic drugs like mushrooms that mirrors an insanity defense.

And alcohol cannot cause this to happen.

So no if you get drunk you are still responsible. The press got it wrong.

Yes. ^^^^^^^

The hysteria last week was ludicrous. The press got it totally wrong.
 
Not just that, but the O.P. does not seem to be well informed on what the ruling is actually about/intended to be used for.

A short version, copied/edited ....

“I've seen a lot of people outraged -- understandably -- by yesterday's headlines saying that "the Ontario Court of Appeal rules intoxication can be used as a defence in sexual assault and violent crime cases". This headline is incredibly misleading (looking at you CP24 and MPP Jill Andrew). I slogged through the 110 page decision, so before you share petitions or try to fight this, there are some important parts of the decision you should know):

(...it is virtually impossible to use being drunk as a defence to sexual assault, even after yesterday's ruling)

1. There were 2 cases dealt with in yesterday's decision, neither one of them involved sexual assault OR alcohol. They involved murder and aggravated assault as a result of hallucinations (more on that later).

2. Being intoxicated or very intoxicated is not a defence to most crimes, including sexual assault and other violent crimes. This was not changed by yesterday's ruling.

3. The only type of intoxication that can be used as a defence is "intoxication akin to automatism". What does that mean? It refers to someone who is so intoxicated that they no longer have any free will and their mind and body are totally out of their control.

4. The law that was overturned yesterday said that people were responsible for violent crimes even if they had no control or understanding that they were committing them, so long it was as a result of self-induced intoxication. This includes prescription medicine, illegal drugs, and potentially alcohol. However the Court also noted that there is evidence that it is physiologically impossible for alcohol to make someone intoxicated enough for the defence of extreme intoxication to apply. To argue this defence, you have to provide a medical expert witness to show that you had no control over yourself at the time of the offence. It's an extremely difficult defence to make out.

5. The reason the law was overturned was that it was punishing people for actions that they were not morally responsible for. This violates the principles of fundamental justice. Notably, the Canadian Civil Liberties Association was one of the groups fighting to get the law overturned.

6. So what kinds of cases are we talking about here? The first case concluded yesterday (R v Chan) dealt with a teenager who took magic mushrooms. The drugs caused a severe reaction (likely due to an undiagnosed brain injury) and he broke into his father's house, killed his father, and attempted to kill his father's partner. When police arrested him they said he "had super strength" and was acting extremely erratically. The partner's evidence suggested he had no idea who they were or what was happening.

The second case (R v Sullivan) dealt with a man who was taking prescription medicine to help quit smoking. One of the side effects of the medicine was psychosis. He reacted poorly to the pills, having hallucinations, and eventually he attempted suicide by taking 30-80 of the pills. This caused a severe psychotic episode where he thought his mom was an alien trying to kill him, so he stabbed her. Fortunately she survived the incident.

The way the law was, both of these men would be guilty and have to go to jail. That's why it was overturned. It's a complicated, difficult part of the law, and I totally understand why people are upset when they first hear it, especially people without any legal training. Hopefully this has helped clarify some of what's happening. The petitions to appeal the decision are asking for both men to be convicted. If you think that's just, then do as you see fit, but please understand what is really happening in this case, and don't make decisions based on misleading headlines.”

Yes. ^^^^^^^^