Doug Ford and Stephen Lecce’s sad state of affairs
- Thread starter Charlemagne
- Start date
Their education could have been better and they could have been more successful. That's my point.
You've only given your personal opinion here as if its fact, I gave you a study that shows you are wrong.
That puts me on the winning side with you left only with your personal opinion and nothing to back that up.
You provided an article from a US newspaper known for being very biased. That's not proof, that's just another opinion.
You are known to be very biased.
At least that study was legit, used evidence and backed up its claims.
Only because you ignore facts you don't like. I already posted that UCC, one of those prestigious private schools, have maximums of 22.
Sadly every suggestion you make is to emulate systems that test well behind Canada.
I don’t see class maximums posted by any private schools. I see averages which vary depending on the school.
You think class sizes are the main reason why schools like UCC are far above any public school you can compare them with?
The only private school that you specifically used as example is Blyth. Their website says that their average class size is 8.
Blyth was used within the context of online courses. Blyth is a different kind of private school (boutique) meant more for bridging classes and picking up required credits for post-secondary (although they also offer full time).
For class sizes, a fair comparison would be a post-secondary full time school usually from grades 9-12 (although many offer elementary grades as well) such as UCC, St. Andrew's, etc.
So average could mean more or less right? And as far as I can see, I don't see anything about mandatory class size limits. Class sizes globally vary as well. (there are dependencies among sources but you get the idea).
Australia 24.7
Abu Dhabi (United Arab Emirates) 25.1
Netherlands 25.4
France 25.5
Canada 25.8
United States 27.0
Israel 27.6
Brazil 30.8
Japan 31.2
Chile 31.8
Malaysia 32.1
Korea 32.4
Mexico 33.0
Singapore 35.5
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_size
And Canada:
PISA measures average class size from school principals’ reports. The reported Canadian average secondary school class size of 26.4 was slightly higher than the OECD average of 26.1. There was a large range of class sizes within Canada extending from a low of 22.6 in Saskatchewan to a high of 30.1 in Quebec. Reported class sizes in Ontario (24.8) and British Columbia (25.4) were statistically indistinguishable from four much smaller provinces.
This study finds a positive correlation (r = 0.758, p = 0.011) between mean subject scores and reported average class sizes: provinces with higher PISA scores tended to have larger classes. The study charts mean scores for reading, science and math against average class sizes in the Big Four provinces. Despite having the lowest scores in each of the three subjects, Ontario also had the smallest classes.
This finding does not mean or imply that increasing class sizes in secondary schools will increase student scores on standardized tests. Many other factors contribute to student outcomes. Still, classroom modifications that research has identified as being effective can cost much less than subsidizing smaller classes. And, as demonstrated by this study, higher scores can be achieved with larger classes.
https://www.fraserinstitute.org/studies/secondary-school-class-sizes-and-student-performance-in-canada
Even if there is no max, the average is much smaller. They couldn't get an average that much lower if more than just the occasional class is bigger.
Clearly the overwhelming preponderance of UCC classes are significantly lower than in the public system already. Your attempt to move the goalpost from average size to max size fails.
Your earlier point compares private class sizes to public as if to suggest that private schools keep their class sizes smaller.
That is not true as far as mandated limits.
So whether class sizes happen to be smaller could be that less students enrol there.
So what’s your point now?
I’ve shown you class sizes globally and there is nothing to show that the increased class sizes proposed in Ontario are out of line.
Quite aside from what evidence there is that class sizes above a certain number produce meaningfully worse educational results (seemingly little evidence of this), I'm really tired of hearing the lie that teachers are fighting over these issues for "us". Simply put, teachers are front line workers in the education sector. They are not who we pay to make recommendations to government about how education could be made more or less effective. It's appropriate to seek input from front line workers. Input - not decisions. We pay plenty of administrators to advise government on how to achieve specific education outcomes.
At the end of the day, governments are accountable for their education policy decisions, not teachers. Voters can change the government if they want different educational policies and/or different spending priorities.
The teachers have more than had their opportunity for input at this point. We have to stop allowing teachers to believe that they can control educational policy through the bargaining process. They are not who we want making these decisions.
Alternatively, if their "concerns" are only a means to an end (lighter workloads, job security), it's time for the government to make that point to the public in blunt terms and to explain why it is prioritizing control over expenditures over these so-called concerns.
At the end of the day, governments are accountable for their education policy decisions, not teachers. Voters can change the government if they want different educational policies and/or different spending priorities.
The teachers have more than had their opportunity for input at this point. We have to stop allowing teachers to believe that they can control educational policy through the bargaining process. They are not who we want making these decisions.
Alternatively, if their "concerns" are only a means to an end (lighter workloads, job security), it's time for the government to make that point to the public in blunt terms and to explain why it is prioritizing control over expenditures over these so-called concerns.
You've shown nothing. I did more research than you on online classes at private schools and I did more research on class size, all the while you told me that I am too lazy to search.
I enjoy a challenging debate with facts and logic, so I guess that I'll have to look elsewhere.
The more info I provide you, you predictably now say you have provided more where I would concede we have both provided about the same. But really, it's an argument I or anyone else can not win despite whatever amount of info is provided to you.
Because it's not really about that.
It's about using this as a basis for your hatred against the PC/Ford government.
And you talk about logic? yeah right.
It's about negotiation. And they have handled this brilliantly.
Now let's see the union say it's not about money as their 2 biggest crying points have been addressed.
eLearning is voluntary, meaning it's still available to those that want it. That was most likely what the government wanted in the first place. Make it available, and watch it grow in popularity.
Class sizes remain the same. I would have liked them to push for higher, but even at this, it reduces the number of teachers required. There was a surplus that we couldn't afford any longer considering declining enrolment.
Everything is going perfectly according to plan. Brilliant!
