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Do you believe in privilege? White privilege, etc?

Do you believe privilege exists?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Don’t care


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escortsxxx

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I might change my mind on this topic. Some interesting points from the net:








I actually went and checked the origins of my privileged existence, to empathize with those whose underdog stories I can’t possibly comprehend. I have unearthed some examples of the privilege with which my family was blessed, and now I think I better understand those who assure me that skin color allowed my family and I to flourish today.


Perhaps it’s the privilege my grandfather and his brother had to flee their home as teenagers when the Nazis invaded Poland, leaving their mother and five younger siblings behind, running and running until they reached a Displaced Persons camp in Siberia, where they would do years of hard labor in the bitter cold until World War II ended. Maybe it was the privilege my grandfather had of taking on the local Rabbi’s work in that DP camp, telling him that the spiritual leader shouldn’t do hard work, but should save his energy to pass Jewish tradition along to those who might survive. Perhaps it was the privilege my great-grandmother and those five great-aunts and uncles I never knew had of being shot into an open grave outside their hometown. Maybe that’s my privilege.


Or maybe it’s the privilege my grandmother had of spending weeks upon weeks on a death march through Polish forests in subzero temperatures, one of just a handful to survive, only to be put in Bergen-Belsen concentration camp where she would have died but for the Allied forces who liberated her and helped her regain her health when her weight dwindled to barely 80 pounds.


Perhaps my privilege is that those two resilient individuals came to America with no money and no English, obtained citizenship, learned the language and met each other; that my grandfather started a humble wicker basket business with nothing but long hours, an idea, and an iron will—to paraphrase the man I never met: “I escaped Hitler. Some business troubles are going to ruin me?” Maybe my privilege is that they worked hard enough to raise four children, and to send them to Jewish day school and eventually City College.


Perhaps it was my privilege that my own father worked hard enough in City College to earn a spot at a top graduate school, got a good job, and for 25 years got up well before the crack of dawn, sacrificing precious time he wanted to spend with those he valued most—his wife and kids—to earn that living. I can say with certainty there was no legacy involved in any of his accomplishments. The wicker business just isn’t that influential.Now would you say that we’ve been really privileged? That our success has been gift-wrapped?


That’s the problem with calling someone out for the “privilege” which you assume has defined their narrative. You don’t know what their struggles have been, what they may have gone through to be where they are. Assuming they’ve benefitted from “power systems” or other conspiratorial imaginary institutions denies them credit for all they’ve done, things of which you may not even conceive. You don’t know whose father died defending your freedom. You don’t know whose mother escaped oppression. You don’t know who conquered their demons, or may still conquering them now.


The truth is, though, that I have been exceptionally privileged in my life, albeit not in the way any detractors would have it.




 
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basketcase

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I think to set an example, you should sacrifice 25% of your pay for a person of colour. Will you do it?
What a dumb cop-out.

But I do volunteer money to foodbanks, children's charities, and volunteer my time with youth organizations base din the inner city.
 

The Fox

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What a dumb cop-out.

But I do volunteer money to foodbanks, children's charities, and volunteer my time with youth organizations base din the inner city.
So they are all poor and headed for trouble?? Pretty prejudice stereotyping there mate.

Poverty is another discussion and it knows no color.
 

escortsxxx

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What a dumb cop-out.

But I do volunteer money to foodbanks, children's charities, and volunteer my time with youth organizations base din the inner city.
Certainly this is the uk standard and starting to take place here for the wage gap

1631757204185.png
 

escortsxxx

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Yes I read the article and the rest of your post, so your "obviously not" is unwarranted.

Here's the problem: you made an incredibly offensive statement, which acted in direct furtherance of your previous statements (that "privilege is a white person concept debated by white people" and that "'[the existence of privilege is an argument] which quite obviously is not only made by White people' is a far fetched and anti-historic assumption"), with no preamble or further explanation except a link to an article that could be interpreted to serve multiple purposes. When I then took offense to it, you are somehow surprised that it comes across as offensive, and then say "certain people do not have the fortitude to read and comprehend certain forms of indirect argument."

I find it very disingenuous to act like your statement is defensible when you went back to edit it out and replace it with condescending language.

And I really couldn't be bothered to go back and trace the number of times you've twisted my arguments into something else.

This reminds me of Swift proposal to cook and eat Irish babies as a food source. People were upset by that as well


I have been assured by a very knowing American of my acquaintance in London, that a young healthy child well nursed, is, at a year old, a most delicious nourishing and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled; and I make no doubt that it will equally serve in a fricasie, or a ragoust.

Narrator
-Swift A Modest Proposal.





and a similar pay reduction to make things fair - we are a few years here for wage reductions of the ruling white male class - so far like the Swedish model there is no real public opposition to the concept:

 
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Roleplayer

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View attachment 83043



This reminds me of Swift proposal to cook and eat Irish babies as a food source. People were upset by that as well


I have been assured by a very knowing American of my acquaintance in London, that a young healthy child well nursed, is, at a year old, a most delicious nourishing and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled; and I make no doubt that it will equally serve in a fricasie, or a ragoust.

Narrator
-Swift A Modest Proposal.





and a similar pay reduction to make things fair - we are a few years here for wage reductions of the ruling white male class - so far like the Swedish model there is no real public opposition to the concept:

Ya know, it's honestly not clear to me why you quoted my post for this, but since you appear to want to address this further...

The statement you edited out was blatantly racist. This basically comes down to two possibilities:

1. The plain reading of it was what you actually meant. This was the most obvious interpretation, because the statement aligned perfectly with claims you were already making and you provided no further explanation about it.
2. As you say, the statement was obviously false, and you said it to make a point. Fine. But then it's really hard to tell what your point actually was, because the statement aligned perfectly with claims you were already making and you provided no further explanation about it. If you want to make a point, it might be more effective to just say what it is.

Now, possibly your point is that using offensive language distracts from the point one is trying to make, and that "privilege" falls into this category. If that's your point, there are a lot of reasons why you didn't go about it very effectively. Again, because what you said aligned perfectly with claims you were already making and you provided no further explanation about it. It would be ridiculous to equate the use of the word "privilege" with the suggestion that a person of a particular race would be excluded from that race based on holding an opinion. I might also add that the person in question is a career academic with a PhD in a related field, so I have every reason to believe his views have as much or more basis in understanding the issues than yours.

You have made some patently false claims. McIntosh did not invent the term "privilege." Her article may have brought it more to the fore, but it appeared in academic writing at least a couple of decades prior. When I've used the word in a broader context beyond just race, you've objected. But even if the word was originally tied more explicitly to issues of race, the understanding of the concept has broadened over the decades to include a wide array of identifiers, and there is nothing unreasonable about this. The first post in this thread laid out how it was being used. Lots of people use the term broadly. And pointing to the McIntosh article to back up this objection makes no sense, because not only did she start the article by talking about male privilege, but she explains that it was through her exploration of male privilege that she delved into White privilege.

Using the word "privilege" does not necessarily imply an accusation of maliciousness or abuse. I've argued in this thread that sometimes discrimination is a subtle phenomenon that occurs without any intent. Other people have made similar arguments, both here and in the greater cultural discussion. Of course there will be times when some people are making these accusations, and there will of course (and unfortunately) be times when such accusations would be justified. This is why I said way back in my first post that an awareness of the effect of the language we use is important. We should choose our words carefully, but for others to treat "privilege" as a de facto accusation really isn't helpful.

Very often, the response doesn't actually have anything to do with the choice of words, but is actually based around the discomfort with the idea itself. Imagine we went back in time and changed the earliest use of the term "privilege" in this context to the term "advantage." Over time, "advantage" would have been used and interpreted in a variety of ways tying into the same issues of blame, denial, guilt and anger. So the same people saying "I'm not privileged! You should choose your words more carefully." now would instead be saying "I'm not advantaged! You should choose your words more carefully." If we stop using a word because it's sometimes used or interpreted in unhelpful ways, there wouldn't be any words left.

Yes, we should be careful in our choice of language, and consider whether or not our choices are the most effective in meeting our goals. But if someone spends all their energy fighting against the word "privilege" with the claim that it distracts from the actual issues, then there's a real hypocrisy there.
 

escortsxxx

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Ya know, it's honestly not clear to me why you quoted my post for this, but since you appear to want to address this further...


You have made some patently false claims. McIntosh did not invent the term "privilege." Her article may have brought it more to the fore, but it appeared in academic writing at least a couple of decades prior. When I've used the word in a broader context beyond just race, you've objected. But even if the word was originally tied more explicitly to issues of race, the understanding of the concept has broadened over the decades to include a wide array of identifiers, and there is nothing unreasonable about this. The first post in this thread laid out how it was being used. Lots of people use the term broadly. And pointing to the McIntosh article to back up this objection makes no sense, because not only did she start the article by talking about male privilege, but she explains that it was through her exploration of male privilege that she delved into White privilege.
Edited down to bare bones



Is it likely that the use of privilege waste time and are a tool of the far right to distract well meaning people? Almost certainly.
It it worth tryng to move well meaning people way from this ideological trap? Unknown - but if successfully human kind could depend there energies on more positive endeavours (including human rights, say writing letters for amnesty international) the pay off for humanity would in theory be high.
However, almost certain it not certain and examination of an apparent weak idea is to some extent warrented - though if it involved magical thinking dangerous - may dark moments in history have been birthed from such magical thinking - in recent times the anti-vax moment in the USA , or the Iraq war and Rwandan genocide on the worst case side and on the much smaller scale the Lindsey Sheppard case in Ontario or the Neil Bantleman case in Jakarta .



I dislike the world begin with one that is prone toa false narrative like "collateral damage" instead of civilian deaths is problematic. Yes one having the privilege to vote is great, but it implies that its an optional right - one that is fine that only some people should have (which in voting is more true than others) but we also see it as a right.


PPS
. A quote from the New Yorker on the key article on Privilege

" But the concept really came into its own in the late eighties, when Peggy McIntosh, a women’s-studies scholar at Wellesley, started writing about it. In 1988, McIntosh wrote a paper called “White Privilege and Male Privilege: A Personal Account of Coming to See Correspondences Through Work in Women’s Studies,” which contained forty-six examples of white privilege. (No. 21: “I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.” No. 24: “I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the ‘person in charge,’ I will be facing a person of my race.”) Those examples have since been read by countless schoolkids and college students—including, perhaps, Tal Fortgang, the Princeton freshman whose recent article, “Checking My Privilege,” has been widely debated. "



Invent to simplify can mean "to popularize" as the word to discover - Gutenberg invented the printing press, but it has already bee invented centuries earlier in China. But he still invented it.
 
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escortsxxx

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A few years ago I got a speeding ticket . When I noticed the flashing lights behind me I knew right away why and I could have kicked myself because I drive that route all the time and should have known better. Anyway I pulled over to the side of the road, casually undid my seat belt, reached (with my hands out of sight) into my back pocket for my wallet, then into my glove compartment for the ownership. The officer arrived, told me I had been speeding, reduced the infraction so I got a lower fine, was pleasant and friendly and even apologetic about having to give me a ticket. Wished me a good day and off we both went. I know enough black people from work and socially to know that had I been black I would have probably been much more cautious about taking my hands out of the sight of the approaching officer and wouldn't have reached for anything until he got there and could see exactly what I was doing. But I'm white and had no reason at all to believe that anything would happen other than me getting a speeding fine. A person of colour would be much less likely to make that assumption. That's a simple example of white privilege.
That maybe true. Certainly I am on the best behaviour when dealing with cops since I know they can kill me. Others maybe on there best behaviour because they are trained that way as kids and think nothing of it. Others have a more entitled viewpoint -forgetting your always guilty till the cops says otherwise:


The below video shows a dangerous attitude - the guy in the video is lucky the police did not overact. In a perfect world you should not have to worry

 

escortsxxx

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I didn’t list them in order of priority or anything. So there is no “#1”. It was just the first one I put.

White privilege is not just about success. It is being treated differently. It is having to work twice as hard as the white guy beside you.

If you are having a race and the white guy is put at the half way mark as his starting point, you would have to run real fucking hard and fast to make it to the finish line at the same time as the white guy. That is the point about white privilege.

POC, brown and black alike, have to go through shit we don’t even think of. Adopting a “white” name so that your resume actually gets looked at. Having a fair chance at housing instead of being denied because the landlord thinks the white people will pay or keep the place better.

White privilege is just so much more then people realize.
That reminds me of a women who uses her status to avoid paying rent - she was in the paper a few times - I think she has never paid rent, but no one ever checks her history -she knows how to con.
 

Roleplayer

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Your not supposed to be reading my posts so I am surprised your responded


Your not supposed to be reading my posts so I am surprised your responded now over 3 times. Hypocrisy by definition, you make a direct promise and then chose to ignore it. As for an discussion of ideas discussion lets assume A is true, then assume that not A is tree, and see which has the great merits or any variation this is common practice of some who is not ideological dogmatic and cares not for truth. I have pointed out in my discourse that I am tolerate enough to consider changing my mind.

Is it likely that the use of privilege waste time and are a tool of the far right to distract well meaning people? Almost certainly.
It it worth tryng to move well meaning people way from this ideological trap? Unknown - but if successfully human kind could depend there energies on more positive endeavours (including human rights, say writing letters for amnesty international) the pay off for humanity would in theory be high.
However, almost certain it not certain and examination of an apparent weak idea is to some extent warrented - though if it involved magical thinking dangerous - may dark moments in history have been birthed from such magical thinking - in recent times the anti-vax moment in the USA , or the Iraq war and Rwandan genocide on the worst case side and on the much smaller scale the Lindsey Sheppard case in Ontario or the Neil Bantleman case in Jakarta .

Out of curiosity have you ever in your own mind been wrong?
And since you have a narrow view of the word "invent" please present who you believe to have invented the term and concept as it is used to today and the link.

PS
And as an intellectual exercise who invented the computer - a hotly debated subject - I am curious how you would solve that problem. This is more to see how you think as there are dozens of correct answers.



And this is a good point

"Very often, the response doesn't actually have anything to do with the choice of words, but is actually based around the discomfort with the idea itself. Imagine we went back in time and changed the earliest use of the term "privilege" in this context to the term "advantage." Over time, "advantage" would have been used and interpreted in a variety of ways tying into the same issues of blame, denial, guilt and anger. So the same people saying "I'm not privileged! You should choose your words more carefully." now would instead be saying "I'm not advantaged! You should choose your words more carefully." If we stop using a word because it's sometimes used or interpreted in unhelpful ways, there wouldn't be any words left."

We have this in the word literally. Now literally means almost nothing since it also means it opposite, figuratively. Misuse of words overtime does have them change there baggage. The N word comes from the Latin for black, still used in French as the colour opposite to white and was once just that a descriptive. Over time racists used the word turning the word into a racist slur.
However starring out with the wrong word to begin with one that is prone to correct a false narrative like "collateral damage" instead of civilian deaths is problematic. Yes one having the privilege to vote is great, but it implies that its an optional right - one that is fine that only some people should have (which in voting is more true than others) but we also see it as a right.


PPS
There are too many fallacies and half truths to discuss. A quote from the New Yorker

" But the concept really came into its own in the late eighties, when Peggy McIntosh, a women’s-studies scholar at Wellesley, started writing about it. In 1988, McIntosh wrote a paper called “White Privilege and Male Privilege: A Personal Account of Coming to See Correspondences Through Work in Women’s Studies,” which contained forty-six examples of white privilege. (No. 21: “I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.” No. 24: “I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the ‘person in charge,’ I will be facing a person of my race.”) Those examples have since been read by countless schoolkids and college students—including, perhaps, Tal Fortgang, the Princeton freshman whose recent article, “Checking My Privilege,” has been widely debated. "

and the word invent
To produce or contrive (something previously unknown) by the use of ingenuity or imagination. 2. To make up; fabricate: invent a likely excuse.

Thought I would go fuhrer than this invent can and often means "to popularize" as the word to discover - Gutenberg invented the printing press, but it has already bee invented centuries earlier in China. But he still invented it.

However if Mcintosh plagiarised previous works and you have knowledge of the true source of the current debate again, share. So far you have only made vague unsourced references and hurled insultes and ad hominem attacks et al.

And you used improper appeal to authority in your arguments, but this is pretty common mistake worthy of chuckle.
I said that I wasn't going to respond because you made a statement I found so offensive that I saw little reason to talk to you. When you apparently made some effort to suggest the statement had been misinterpreted, I was prepared to at least listen. I'm regretting this choice.

I am done with your condescension. I am done addressing the mischaracterizations/misunderstanding of me and my points as well as the inaccuracies in your posts, because it is just leading further into this crap.

It takes a lot to get on my ignore list. Even with people who've said things I thought were way out line, I still didn't put them on ignore. But in this case, it's really just the best way to proceed. I am aware you'll probably see this as a vindication, but I'm content with that.
 

The Fox

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More dumb posts. Do you even have a point here?
Of course I have a point. You were asked by a member if you would give a portion of your money to people of colour. You responded by saying you don’t need to because you volunteer to inner city communities and give to food banks. That’s racist as fuck. I think you are the dumb one my friend.
 

Jenesis

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Will the original poster recognize that she has the most privilege of all? A white Karen with a vagina?
When did I become a racist “Karen”? Because that is what a Karen is. A racist middle aged white women. I’m not racist.

When did I deny my privilege at all in or out of this thread? I think I have said plenty in recognition of my privilege.

Have you even read the thread? Because if you did, you may not have asked such silly questions.

Although I don’t take the cake on privilege. Close but not quite having the most of all. That is for cis, white, rich, able-bodied , heterosexual men.

So how much privilege do you have?
 
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John Wick

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When did I become a racist “Karen”? Because that is what a Karen is. A racist middle aged white women. I’m not racist.
I'm pretty sure that this is not the definition of a 'Karen'.
 

basketcase

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Of course I have a point. You were asked by a member if you would give a portion of your money to people of colour. You responded by saying you don’t need to because you volunteer to inner city communities and give to food banks. That’s racist as fuck. I think you are the dumb one my friend.
??? So somehow I'm the racist one for volunteering in a very multicultural community?

But don't worry, I know what's going on. This conversation has made you start thinking and the discomfort you're feeling is having you lash out.
 

Robert Mugabe

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Paul Jones of Manfred Mann summed it all up for me.

"I need my freedom. Not your sympathy"


"A rebel without a cause." Turn down the suck.
 

cex

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You're sounding like a loony far left liberal. Canada is not racist and whites are now not majority in GTA so stop with the white privilege claims.
Looney far left? Tell me what part of my statement makes me sound like that because I asked how you know. I'm black and I'm speaking from experience. You came out and made a statement and I asked how you know this for a fact. So, do tell and try not to sidestep it this time and not make it political.
 
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