Different kinds of untruthfulness

Bud Plug

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Aug 17, 2001
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As we approach the Presidential debates and I reflect on the futility of the debate that occurs here on TERB, I had a fleeting hopeful thought that perhaps some of the irreconcilability of positions turns on the failure to recognize that there are different kinds of untruthfulness, and that some forms of untruthfulness should matter more than others. Of course, there is still the possibility that we will agree on this concept, and still disagree on which categories are more meaningful, but I thought it might be interesting to explore.

1. Hyperbole

The truth of these statements are not provably true or false, because they extend beyond provable fact. Example - "Mexico is not sending their best. The people they are sending include, rapists, criminals, and some good people, I don't know." This statement is neither provably true or false. Is Mexico purposefully sending citizens over the border? Are they indirectly encouraging it, or turning a blind eye to it? No one knows for sure except top Mexican government officials, and they are not admitting it. Is it partially true? It does appear that Mexico is taking next to no steps to prevent illegal immigration into the US. Are there some criminals among those who have breached the border? Probably, yes (so probably it's at least partially true). Are there so many that it is proper to characterize the entire group of illegal aliens this way? No one can know based on available data. As a result, this statement is not a provable untruth (as it is at least partially true), but can't be proved to be entirely accurate either.

2. Bravado

These are statements of prediction, or of desired perception, but are not provably true. Example - "Mexico will pay for the wall". No one can know this to be true or false until Mexico is asked to pay for a wall and says yes or no. It is a prediction or a desired outcome, not a fact.

3. Conjecture

These are statements based on a theory that mixes some motivation assumptions with some facts. Example - Robby Mook - "The Russians are attempting to help Trump in this election". This is not provably true. It lacks sufficient factual basis, and its motivational underpinnings are debateable. Only Putin and his closest aides knows whether this is true, and they are neither confirming it, nor allowing sufficient evidence to be uncovered to reveal it to be so. Another common name for insufficiently supported conjecture is conspiracy theory.

4. Lies

These are statements that are provably false and provably known to be false by the speaker. Example - Clinton - "We landed the plane under sniper fire".
This is to be distinguished from so-called media "fact-checking", which is usually ultimately an opinion about the likely correctness of a statement, mixing a consideration of facts, motivations and other matters of opinion.

5. Inaccuracies

These are statements that are provably false, but not provably known to be false by the speaker. Example - Trump "We spend more money per student than any other country in the world". Such statements might be based on what the speaker believes, or has been told, but can still be provably false.

In my view, all of these types of untruths raise concerns, but not the same concerns. Inaccuracies are undesirable, and may speak to the laziness or competence of a candidate, but not to their integrity. Conjecture potentially speaks to the both the competence and integrity of a candidate. Lies go straight to the issue of integrity. Hyperbole is certainly a competence issue, but might not indicate laziness. Instead it is a style of communication that is not optimally effective (if your objective is clarity in communication). Bravado is indicative of a risk taking disposition - people who make bold predictions expose themselves to ridicule if they are proven wrong, and are hailed as sages if proven right.

All of these issues go to the character of the candidate, and only bear on their policy positions to the extent that they undermine confidence that the candidate will actually do what they claim they will do. In my opinion, integrity is the most important character consideration. Countries can survive leaders who are not personally competent, particularly since they are invariably surrounded with advisors who are. However, what a leader must do is convince the people that he believes in the correctness of the policies that are implemented, and that he is implementing those policies based on what he believes are the best interests of the people. This is why, in this race of admittedly flawed candidates, I continue to prefer Trump.
 

Frankfooter

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Apr 10, 2015
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Apparently lying repeatedly isn't an issue for those who decide they will trust their politician of choice.

Witness Ford and Trump supporters.
 

Bud Plug

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Apparently lying repeatedly isn't an issue for those who decide they will trust their politician of choice.

Witness Ford and Trump supporters.
Well, I see that this exercise is completely lost on at least one person.
 

Bud Plug

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Aug 17, 2001
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Yes, posting about which lies you find acceptable really doesn't make a strong case for yourself, does it?

Both lie.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ing-hillary-clinton-donald-trump-truth-o-met/
Just one more pass with you - did you read anything of what I wrote? My post posits that not every "untruth" is a lie. My final paragraph clearly states that I am more concerned with those untruths that are properly characterized as a lie (not that I am unconcerned with the other types of untruth).

"Truthometers" are unhelpful in applying this distinction, because they focus on "truth" not "deception".

Is your point that you don't care about the distinctions? If it is, that would clarify your position to me.
 

Smallcock

Active member
Jun 5, 2009
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Very well written. I agree with you wholeheartedly.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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Just one more pass with you - did you read anything of what I wrote? My post posits that not every "untruth" is a lie. My final paragraph clearly states that I am more concerned with those untruths that are properly characterized as a lie (not that I am unconcerned with the other types of untruth).

"Truthometers" are unhelpful in applying this distinction, because they focus on "truth" not "deception".

Is your point that you don't care about the distinctions? If it is, that would clarify your position to me.
I think we need to hold all politicians to speak the truth no matter what the situation.

But even according to your terms, you shouldn't be backing Trump.
As newsweek just posted, there is enough evidence that Trump lied under oath to have impeached the same way Clinton was impeached for lying.
http://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-jeb-bush-lie-florida-casino-gambling-502144

If you really value the truth, even if its only a bit using your rather loose terms, then by your terms you should ditch Trump.
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
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Well, I see that this exercise is completely lost on at least one person.
Is that person Trump?

All politicians lie but Trump has taken well beyond the realm of the typical politician and into a whole new world of obvious lies and conspiracy theories.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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While we're talking 'truthiness', we should mention the BS factor.

While its one thing to out and out lie, which both candidates have done, its also another level of dishonesty when they regularly try to bullshit.
As in, pretending to speak as if you know something about a subject you have no clue about.

Witness Trump's campaign explaining how Trump couldn't be lying describing a moderator as Democrat when they were really Republican, because Trump just didn't know.
Which leaves him as an admitted bullshit artist.

Well, I see that this exercise is completely lost on at least one person.
 

shack

Nitpicker Extraordinaire
Oct 2, 2001
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As we approach the Presidential debates and I reflect on the futility of the debate that occurs here on TERB, I had a fleeting hopeful thought that perhaps some of the irreconcilability of positions turns on the failure to recognize that there are different kinds of untruthfulness, and that some forms of untruthfulness should matter more than others. Of course, there is still the possibility that we will agree on this concept, and still disagree on which categories are more meaningful, but I thought it might be interesting to explore.

1. Hyperbole

The truth of these statements are not provably true or false, because they extend beyond provable fact. Example - "Mexico is not sending their best. The people they are sending include, rapists, criminals, and some good people, I don't know." This statement is neither provably true or false. Is Mexico purposefully sending citizens over the border? Are they indirectly encouraging it, or turning a blind eye to it? No one knows for sure except top Mexican government officials, and they are not admitting it. Is it partially true? It does appear that Mexico is taking next to no steps to prevent illegal immigration into the US. Are there some criminals among those who have breached the border? Probably, yes (so probably it's at least partially true). Are there so many that it is proper to characterize the entire group of illegal aliens this way? No one can know based on available data. As a result, this statement is not a provable untruth (as it is at least partially true), but can't be proved to be entirely accurate either.

2. Bravado

These are statements of prediction, or of desired perception, but are not provably true. Example - "Mexico will pay for the wall". No one can know this to be true or false until Mexico is asked to pay for a wall and says yes or no. It is a prediction or a desired outcome, not a fact.

3. Conjecture

These are statements based on a theory that mixes some motivation assumptions with some facts. Example - Robby Mook - "The Russians are attempting to help Trump in this election". This is not provably true. It lacks sufficient factual basis, and its motivational underpinnings are debateable. Only Putin and his closest aides knows whether this is true, and they are neither confirming it, nor allowing sufficient evidence to be uncovered to reveal it to be so. Another common name for insufficiently supported conjecture is conspiracy theory.

4. Lies

These are statements that are provably false and provably known to be false by the speaker. Example - Clinton - "We landed the plane under sniper fire".
This is to be distinguished from so-called media "fact-checking", which is usually ultimately an opinion about the likely correctness of a statement, mixing a consideration of facts, motivations and other matters of opinion.

5. Inaccuracies

These are statements that are provably false, but not provably known to be false by the speaker. Example - Trump "We spend more money per student than any other country in the world". Such statements might be based on what the speaker believes, or has been told, but can still be provably false.

In my view, all of these types of untruths raise concerns, but not the same concerns. Inaccuracies are undesirable, and may speak to the laziness or competence of a candidate, but not to their integrity. Conjecture potentially speaks to the both the competence and integrity of a candidate. Lies go straight to the issue of integrity. Hyperbole is certainly a competence issue, but might not indicate laziness. Instead it is a style of communication that is not optimally effective (if your objective is clarity in communication). Bravado is indicative of a risk taking disposition - people who make bold predictions expose themselves to ridicule if they are proven wrong, and are hailed as sages if proven right.

All of these issues go to the character of the candidate, and only bear on their policy positions to the extent that they undermine confidence that the candidate will actually do what they claim they will do. In my opinion, integrity is the most important character consideration. Countries can survive leaders who are not personally competent, particularly since they are invariably surrounded with advisors who are. However, what a leader must do is convince the people that he believes in the correctness of the policies that are implemented, and that he is implementing those policies based on what he believes are the best interests of the people. This is why, in this race of admittedly flawed candidates, I continue to prefer Trump.
Instead of being spin masters let us simplify things.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/untruthful

According to merriam-webster, untruthful =dishonest, deceitful, mendacious.
 

Bud Plug

Sexual Appliance
Aug 17, 2001
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Instead of being spin masters let us simplify things.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/untruthful

According to merriam-webster, untruthful =dishonest, deceitful, mendacious.
Hilarious! You actually chose to post an untruthful definition of untruthfulness! From the very source you cited:

Full Definition of untruthful

: not containing or telling the truth : false, inaccurate <an untruthful report

Synonym Discussion of untruthful

dishonest, deceitful, mendacious, untruthful mean unworthy of trust or belief. dishonest implies a willful perversion of truth in order to deceive, cheat, or defraud <a swindle usually involves two dishonest people>. deceitful usually implies an intent to mislead and commonly suggests a false appearance or double-dealing <the secret affairs of a deceitful spouse>. mendacious may suggest bland or even harmlessly mischievous deceit and when used of people often suggests a habit of telling untruths <mendacious tales of adventure>. untruthful stresses a discrepancy between what is said and fact or reality <an untruthful account of their actions>.


You chose to cite the synonym discussion as the definition. Which kind of untruthfulness was that?
 

fuji

Banned
Jan 31, 2005
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Can you highlight the different kinds of untruthfulness with examples from Trump's speeches?

He has given you a wealth of untruthful statements to draw on. I think he's hit every single one of your types practically every day.
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
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I think you yourself provided a far better illustration of mixing a dash of fact with assumed motivation and opinion.
…3. Conjecture
These are statements based on a theory that mixes some motivation assumptions with some facts. Example -BudPlug, under 4. Lies …"This is to be distinguished from so-called media "fact-checking", which is usually ultimately an opinion about the likely correctness of a statement, mixing a consideration of facts, motivations and other matters of opinion." …
which I illustrated with the above cut and paste.

Media fact-checking cannot be described as "…usually ultimately" anything, not unless factually proven to be so. Absent production of the 'real', contradictory facts, a rejection of media fact-checking on the basis of one's belief about what they 'usually' do or say is 'conjecture' at best. But 'prejudiced' might be a more accurate term.
 

Bud Plug

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Aug 17, 2001
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I think you yourself provided a far better illustration of mixing a dash of fact with assumed motivation and opinion.
which I illustrated.

Neither can media fact-checking be described as "…usually ultimately" anything, unless factually proven to be so. Absent production of the 'real', contradictory facts, rejection of media fact-checking on the basis of one's belief about what they 'usually' do or say is 'conjecture' at best. But 'prejudiced' would be a more accurate term.
Oh, I could make the case I'm positing about what media "fact checking" is all about, but that will be for another thread. Too much detail to add to this one.

However, I think you misunderstand what I mean by "motivation". In this context I'm simply talking about assumptions based on human tendencies. I think you've read in "improper" before motivation.

In any event, all of this discussion is pretty tangential. The thrust of the thread is whether it is accepted that there are different kinds of untruthfulness, and whether that matters to evaluating the candidates.
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
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Oh, I could make the case I'm positing about media "fact checking", but that will be for another thread. Too much detail to add to this one.
I look forward to that thread. How do you intend to define and prove that word "usually"? How will it apply to media in general? Seems to me you've promised something as far-fetched as the proof that Negros are naturally superior dancers.

But I'm sure you'll have lotsa facts to back up your truths about what media fact-checking usually ultimately is. Until then your unsupported conjecture is on record.
 

Bud Plug

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Aug 17, 2001
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I look forward to that thread. How do you intend to define and prove that word "usually"? How will it apply to media in general? Seems to me you've promised something as far-fetched as the proof that Negros are naturally superior dancers.

But I'm sure you'll have lotsa facts to back up your truths about what media fact-checking usually ultimately is. Until then your unsupported conjecture is on record.
You seem doggedly determined to miss the point of this thread. I suspect tonight will be full of similar analysis by political analysts.
 

oldjones

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Aug 18, 2001
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Quite the contrary, I simply pointed out that you had vividly illustrated one of those varieties of untruthfulness yourself. Shows how many are the pitfalls we all encounter and need to stay clear of, in debate and discussion. For all that sticking point, I should have acknowledged much earlier the very serious effort you had put into your original post and the other useful points in it.

I'm quite sure tonight will also deliver more of the 'untruths due to ignorance' than we are used to hearing from candidates who have been preparing themselves for high office for years; we'll see how many are detected. And how many are admitted.
 
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