Democracies are better

[fuji]

Either are the citizens in a democracy.
Its considered a democracy if each participant gets a vote, as is the case in the UN.

No, moron, it's considered a democracy if power is derived from the people through elections. It is not a democracy when only the tyrants get a vote.

By your idiotic and ludicrous definition China is a democracy because each participant in its Central Committee gets a vote. That's so fucking dumb.

 

[flubadub]

No, moron, it's considered a democracy if power is derived from the people through elections. It is not a democracy when only the tyrants get a vote.

By your idiotic and ludicrous definition China is a democracy because each participant in its Central Committee gets a vote. That's so fucking dumb.

No, the Central Committee may work by democratic process, but the gov't of China is not a democracy. Nice try.
And tell me again how it is that 'only the tyrants get a vote'?

 

[fuji]

No, the Central Committee may work by democratic process, but the gov't of China is not a democracy. Nice try.

Why don't you explain why China is not a democracy?

The President and Premier are openly elected by a vote at the National People's Congress. The delegates at the National People's Congress are all elected from across the country in a system of representative elections. That's a hell of a lot more democratic than the way delegates to the UN are selected!

What's the problem?

The only thing undemocratic about it is that you have to be a member of the Chinese Communist Party in order to cast a vote in the NPC elections... but hey, according to you, inclusion of the general public in elections is not required for democracy.

 

[fuji]

Arrow's Theorem proved that no voting system is perfect

Sure. So what? That changes nothing. The 40 or so nations that are considered democracies all have various flaws and limitations, but nonetheless in order to form the government of any of those nations you have to convince a hell of a lot of the general public that you deserve to be. Nothing's ever going to be perfect, but once it's good enough, we call it a democracy.

There are a variety of different organizations that define democracy and produce lists of which nations they consider democratic--we could have a useful debate about how far down those lists you should draw the line. Are the 40 democracies or 50? Depends on how permissive you are and what you tolerate. Certainly no-one lists Iran as a democracy, though, except perhaps the Iranian propaganda ministry and it's syncophants like Flubby.

In Iran, you just have to convince the Supreme Tyrant, who is answerable to no one, and runs the country at a whim. Yes it's similar to the way that Western countries were long ago--before they were democracies. It sure as hell isn't similar to the way things are now: The Queen does not hand pick who is allowed to run for Parliament in Canada or the United Kingdom.

 

[fuji]

You really should go back and read some history on the subject of democracy. It actually is an evolution --- there is no such thing as all of sudden becoming a democracy, people of the United Kingdom during the reign of Queen Victoria believed they had a democracy but the truth is that Queen Victoria had the right to refuse any appointment to the cabinet and could veto any law

Why are you talking about this? Nobody disagrees with it, and it's irrelevant to the point.

We are talking about which nations are democracies TODAY. As of now nations like the UK, the US, Switzerland, Sweden, Japan, etc., are democracies. Nations like Iran are not. End of discussion.

So really Fuji, "when it becomes good enough" is kind of subjective or is your EGO so huge that the phrase should be WHEN FUJI THINKS IT IS GOOD ENOUGH

I don't think you read my post. You certainly don't give any indication that you comprehend anything I wrote. I left it to third party groups to evaluate which nations are democracies. There are several that do that, and their lists of what nations are, and are not democratic are remarkably similar.

Iran at this stage is no different than Western Democracies were in their early development.

I disagree. However, even if that were true it's irrelevant: Iran is not a democracy right now, and shows no sign of being one anytime soon. Same for China. At the moment they are indisputably NOT democratic.

These nations may become democracies one day, but until they do they have inferior systems. Democracy is better.

 

[rld]

These nations may become democracies one day, but until they do they have inferior systems. Democracy is better.

So what?

The democracies may fail and become something else?

But...really...so what?

 

[fuji]

Today's Democracies may actually be looked at as exceedingly unfair at some future date

Agreed, but I don't see how this is relevant?

and it is very relevant to look at where we were in the past so that we can help and grow and recognize future democratic Governments.

Agreed. But I don't see how this is relevant?

For you to make the rather simple and rather ignorant argument that if they are not like us then they are inferior is a little like the old Jim Crow laws that said that since black's were inferiorly educated and civilized then they need not be included in society.

I didn't say the people were inferior. There's nothing wrong with the Iranian people. It is their government that is morally inferior.

Sure maybe one day if left to its own devices it might evolve into something that is not so inferior, but it is plain fact that today it is not a democracy, and it's my firmly held opinion (and those of many who died for our country) that democracy is better.

Look you miss the point about Iran

No, YOU miss the point. You keep talking in grand historical terms, about where we were 1000 years ago, and where they might be 1000 years from now. I am talking about today: In the present moment they are not a democracy, they have a morally inferior form of government. It should not be accorded the same status as the superior form of government that exists in the world's 40 or 50 democracies.

Maybe some day they will grow into a respectable democracy--today they're not.