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Damn climate change!

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
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Great graphic from today's CBC showing the impacts of climate change on regional temperatures.

http://www.cbc.ca/news2/interactives/img/1902_2009_Hi.gif
Related article
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/cli...ows-pockets-of-warming-around-world-1.2648526

Sort of scary how quickly Canada enters the red in recent years. Seems like equatorial regions might be the place to survive the effects. I also wonder about the correlation between temperature most affecting industrialized countries and the related jet streams.
 

blackrock13

Banned
Jun 6, 2009
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See post #55.

Or better yet, heed the words of James Lovelock, who says environmentalism is a religion that doesn't pay enough attention to facts.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/mar/30/james-lovelock-environmentalism-religion

Says Lovelock: "You just can't tell what's going to happen."
Lovelock was handled in past threads and done like dinner. Might I suggest you try reading these inside looks at the denier campaigns;

Oreskes and Conway, Merchants of Doubt: How a Handful of Scientists Obscured the Truth on Issues from Tobacco Smoke to Global Warming, New York: Bloomsbury, 2010.


Dunlap, Riley E. and Aaron M. McCright. 2010. “Climate Change Denial: Sources, Actors and Strategies.” Pp. 240-259 in Constance Lever-Tracy (ed.), Routledge Handbook of Climate Change and Society. London: Routledge.


McCright, Aaron M. and Riley E. Dunlap. 2010. ”Anti-Reflexivity: The American Conservative Movement‘s Success in Undermining Climate Science and Policy.” Theory, Culture and Society (2-3) 26:100-133.

Then we have this from the Guardian that MF2 just loves;

http://www.theguardian.com/environm...nt/2013/may/20/heartland-institute-scientists
 

blackrock13

Banned
Jun 6, 2009
40,087
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"Global Warming"!
Now "Climate Change"!

Makes me laugh! The climate has been changing for millennia that's nature, that's normal, that's evolution.

They are just trying to use it as a means to a new tax....carbon tax=taxing the air you breathe !

What a scam.
You are so late to this discussion, clearly not read any of the posts in this thread or especially the last two or three past and brought ancient points that have all been shown to be weak, and I'm being polite, but thanks for coming out. They don't need any excuse like this to add another tax. It's called 'change' becasue it is changing and it's called 'warming' because it is. The phenomenon is still here.
 

ericdf11

Member
Jan 19, 2011
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If you get your facts from "scientists" you will read propaganda aimed at continuing their stream of grant money.
 

blackrock13

Banned
Jun 6, 2009
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If you get your facts from "scientists" you will read propaganda aimed at continuing their stream of grant money.
If this is to hold up for scientists who support global warming, why does it not hold true for scientists well known among the deniers. You can't have it only one way

The grant money question has already been answered in past threads. The top echelon of researchers will always find work. Most research money is private money, not government grants, but hey. Not even going to try and justify the if it's scientific facts it must be a lie argument.

What about facts from non scientists like Richard S. Courtney, the accountant/psychologist Willis Eschenbach, the politician Fritz Vahrenholt or economist David Evans, the last who believes in the ‘Protocols of Elders’, to name just a few, let alone the slew of denier who work for the oil companies or the Heartland Institute?
 

Moviefan-2

Court Jester
Oct 17, 2011
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To discuss the empirical evidence you keep claiming to want?
I repeat my question: To what end?

On the one hand, you claim I`m "anti-science" and have "an agenda." If you believe that`s the case, why are you so curious to know what my responses are?

I spent a good deal of time deconstructing the "97% consensus" claims and showing -- beyond any reasonable doubt -- that the claims are complete garbage (https://terb.cc/vbulletin/showthread.php?471227-Global-Warming-Fact-or-grossly-exaggerated). Yet the true holders of the faith, such as yourself, continue to cite them.

Even worse, you say you don`t believe there has actually been a "pause". Unbelievable. Even hard-core believers in global warming such as James Hansen and Dana Nuccitelli concede that there has been a pause in the Earth`s surface temperatures (and that it continues to this day). Whether you believe it invalidates the concept of global warming or not, the pause itself has been confirmed by empirical evidence (and acknowledged by all sides in the debate).

And you call me "anti-science"?

Yes, I could speak to the Antarctic, and to the latest satellite data that show the pause continues. But again: to what end?

I don`t think you`re going to change your mind. And people who cite trash propaganda numbers about a "consensus" and deny the scientific conclusion that there`s been a pause in the Earth`s surface temperatures sure aren`t going to convince me to change my views.
 

groggy

Banned
Mar 21, 2011
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I repeat my question: To what end?

On the one hand, you claim I`m "anti-science" and have "an agenda." If you believe that`s the case, why are you so curious to know what my responses are?

I spent a good deal of time deconstructing the "97% consensus" claims and showing -- beyond any reasonable doubt -- that the claims are complete garbage (https://terb.cc/vbulletin/showthread.php?471227-Global-Warming-Fact-or-grossly-exaggerated). Yet the true holders of the faith, such as yourself, continue to cite them.
Yet NASA and a host of other legit associations use this study and this 97% number.
Are you claiming you are smarter then them or that every legit scientific association is corrupt?



Even worse, you say you don`t believe there has actually been a "pause". Unbelievable. Even hard-core believers in global warming such as James Hansen and Dana Nuccitelli concede that there has been a pause in the Earth`s surface temperatures (and that it continues to this day). Whether you believe it invalidates the concept of global warming or not, the pause itself has been confirmed by empirical evidence (and acknowledged by all sides in the debate).
Your pause claim was shown to be based on cherry picking. Your argument was destroyed by my using the same cherry picking tactics offset by a couple of years showing that I could claim that global surface temperatures were rising by double or so of the IPCC projections. After I gave you that example you stopped the pause claim. Forgot that already?


Yes, I could speak to Antarctica, and to the latest satellite data that show the pause continues. But again: to what end?
To show that you really are an idiot who can`t understand the science.
Because the science very clearly shows you are wrong.


I don`t think you`re going to change your mind. And people who cite trash propaganda numbers about a "consensus" and deny the scientific conclusion that there`s been a pause in the Earth`s surface temperatures sure aren`t going to convince me.
And just to refresh your mind, and to show that you`re an idiot who doesn`t read what he links to, here` the specific link to the post in which I destroyed your pause argument.
https://terb.cc/vbulletin/showthread.php?471227-Global-Warming-Fact-or-grossly-exaggerated&p=4880707&viewfull=1#post4880707

And here`s the quote:
More cherry picking.
But if you want to play that game lets have some fun.

1993-1998 = 0.7ºC over 5 years!!!!!!

2008-2010 = 0.4ºC over 2 years!!!!!


See how easy it is?
That`s using the same cherry picking tactics you used to make your claim.
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
60,340
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"Global Warming"!
Now "Climate Change"!

Makes me laugh! The climate has been changing for millennia that's nature, that's normal, that's evolution.

They are just trying to use it as a means to a new tax....carbon tax=taxing the air you breathe !

What a scam.
Yep. Climate change wiped out the dinosaurs but we have nothing to worry about.
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
60,340
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I repeat my question: To what end?
...
The end is to either have you discuss real science or admit your claims of supporting empirical data is full of shit.

Latest story

Climate scientist proposes extremely cold 2014 winter link to global warming
http://phys.org/news/2014-05-climate-scientist-extremely-cold-winter.html

or from last week,
Unprecedented B.C. glacier melt seeps into U.S. climate change concerns
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...ps-into-u-s-climate-change-concerns-1.2646742


And of course, we already know that April measurements put pause to discussions of a pause.


Care to discuss why practically every day there is another published report from scientists discussing the effects of climate change, the continuation of global warming and the effect that human activity has had on it?
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
60,340
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...

Yes, I could speak to the Antarctic, and to the latest satellite data that show the pause continues. But again: to what end?...
I guess beliefs like your are part of the reason why you don't want to talk about actual data.

Actual data show April was the hottest world wide in 20 years, November was the hottest in 134 years, last May was the third warmest on record. I guess your predictions of a pause were spectacularly wrong but don't worry, that's only using empirical data.
 

Moviefan-2

Court Jester
Oct 17, 2011
10,489
171
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And of course, we already know that April measurements put pause to discussions of a pause.
Scientists -- including some of the most strident believers in global warming -- don`t support your assertion that there hasn`t been a pause. You appear to be in Flat Earth Society territory.

I guess beliefs like your are part of the reason why you don`t want to talk about actual data.
Nonsense. I`ve been quite transparent about my reluctance to spend another month or two debating your latest examples.

You still haven`t convinced me that you`re open to changing your position. In fact, your statements suggest you`re not going to listen to anything I say.

If you`re open to changing your mind, then perhaps it is worth my while. Otherwise, I`m quite happy to stand by the points I already made in the previous thread (https://terb.cc/vbulletin/showthread.php?471227-Global-Warming-Fact-or-grossly-exaggerated). That would include the explanations for why the fear-mongering continues.
 

groggy

Banned
Mar 21, 2011
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Scientists -- including some of the most strident believers in global warming -- don`t support your assertion that there hasn`t been a pause. You appear to be in Flat Earth Society territory..

https://terb.cc/vbulletin/showthread....=1#post4880707

Your claim there was a pause is based off cherry picking. Starting at the warmest year on record and going to the coolest to make it appear there is a pause. But even that claim admits that with the cherry picking dates global surface temperatures were still increasing. Where it falls to pieces as the piece of shit propaganda from ex-tobacco lobbyists is when you shift the date forward or back again just a couple of years and try the same game.

This is what you get:

1993-1998 = 0.7ºC over 5 years!!!!!!

2008-2010 = 0.4ºC over 2 years!!!!!


See how easy it is?
That`s using the same cherry picking tactics you used to make your claim.


Remember how you abandoned the thread after this was pointed out to you enough times that you finally understood it?

And note that you still have no answer to the very recent devastating news about glacial melts in Antarctica and through the world.
 

Moviefan-2

Court Jester
Oct 17, 2011
10,489
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Your claim there was a pause...
My "claim" that there was a pause?

It's not my "claim." The evidence confirms there has been a pause over a period of about 17 years -- a fact that is accepted by scientists on all side of the debate, and was confirmed in the IPCC's AR5 report.
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
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Scientists -- including some of the most strident believers in global warming -- don't support your assertion that there hasn't been a pause. You appear to be in Flat Earth Society territory.
...
Yet the empirical data shows that April was the warmest in 20 years, November was the warmest in 134 years and last May was the warmest on record.

You really are a joke. When groggy says the vast majority of scientists agree on the anthropogenic causes of global warming, you say that we should ignore the scientists and focus on empirical data. When I give you empirical data that shows the pause isn't really a pause, you say we should listen to scientists. Which is it?
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
60,340
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...
You still haven't convinced me that you're open to changing your position. In fact, your statements suggest you're not going to listen to anything I say.
....
If you go back far enough in terb threads, you'd see I already changed my mind. I used to be skeptical about the human impact on climate change. I looked at the data though and saw that global warming is occurring at a rapid rate and that human impact plays a large role.

For me to change my mind again, I would need to see evidence that refutes the widely accepted scientific conclusion while all you have provided is word games and changing goal posts. In that other thread you mention (as if you won anything there), you have argued that there is a scientific conspiracy stopping the 'truth' from coming out. You have argued global warming isn't happening. You have argued global warming is happening but isn't anthropogenic (you have argued that anthropogenic doesn't mean caused by humans). You have argued that the scientists are ignoring empirical evidence. You have argued that we should ignore empirical evidence based on selectively quoted scientists.

Obviously you are happy to change your opinion if you think it will win the argument and support your Luddite views on science.
 

groggy

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Mar 21, 2011
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My "claim" that there was a pause?

It's not my "claim." The evidence confirms there has been a pause over a period of about 17 years -- a fact that is accepted by scientists on all side of the debate, and was confirmed in the IPCC's AR5 report.
The IPCC says picking small time periods, for them 10-15 years, results in errors from noise.
That's what they say in their report, its in the footnotes that you never read.
So they say that using your lobbyist provided cherry picked time period is not an accurate depiction of the changes.
That's clear by my moving the dates a year or two in either direction and giving you results which look like twice as much change happened.

You don't understand the IPCC reports, do you?

Your 'empirical evidence' is based on cherry picking, dishonest arguing techniques.
 

Moviefan-2

Court Jester
Oct 17, 2011
10,489
171
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When groggy says the vast majority of scientists agree on the anthropogenic causes of global warming, you say that we should ignore the scientists and focus on empirical data. When I give you empirical data that shows the pause isn't really a pause, you say we should listen to scientists. Which is it?
I never said we should ignore the scientists. I said we should ignore the propaganda about a "consensus," which you keep falsely claiming is the same thing as scientific evidence. It isn't.

You have argued global warming isn't happening. You have argued global warming is happening but isn't anthropogenic (you have argued that anthropogenic doesn't mean caused by humans). You have argued that the scientists are ignoring empirical evidence. You have argued that we should ignore empirical evidence based on selectively quoted scientists.
You get so many things wrong, it's impossible to know where to begin. Sadly, as I have mentioned before, I have concluded that some of your falsehoods are intentional.

Let's set the record straight:

-- The climate changes. Always has and always will. Indeed, it was changing for billions of years prior to the Industrial Revolution. I have never disputed that.

-- Anthropogenic global warming -- the assertion that man-made CO2 emissions are causing unprecedented warming of the planet -- isn't currently supported by empirical evidence. I am skeptical of that premise (and there's no point blaming me if you think the IPCC and the Al Gore crowd are using the word "anthropogenic" incorrectly).

-- You repeatedly talk about the IPCC and "scientists" as if the two are interchangeable. They are not. The IPCC is dominated by a political agenda, not a scientific one.

-- I do not argue that we should ignore empirical evidence. Quite the opposite. I have argued the empirical evidence clearly shows the IPCC's predictions (or projections, if you prefer) have been spectacularly wrong. I believe we should pay attention to that evidence, not ignore it.

If I were to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that your confusion is legitimate, then that is an excellent reason why we should never use the expression "climate change."

Clearly, there are some people who confuse the scientific fact that the climate changes (which I assume we all accept) with the debate about whether or not CO2 emissions are causing unusual and dangerous warming. If "climate change" is a term that is misunderstood, then we should always stick to talking about man-made global warming. That will end the confusion (assuming the eco types actually want to avoid such confusion, which is a matter of some dispute).

Finally, if I am "a joke," why are you so eager to spend a month or so debating my responses to the latest alarming headlines?
 

groggy

Banned
Mar 21, 2011
15,266
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I...
get so many things wrong, it's impossible to know where to begin. Sadly, as I have mentioned before, I have concluded that some of your falsehoods are intentional.

Let's set the record straight:

-- The climate changes. Always has and always will. Indeed, it was changing for billions of years prior to the Industrial Revolution. I have never disputed that.
Correct, though it has never happened so quickly in the history of the planet save maybe an asteroid hit.
In that way what we are experiencing presently is very much unique.

-- Anthropogenic global warming -- the assertion that man-made CO2 emissions are causing unprecedented warming of the planet -- isn't currently supported by empirical evidence. I am skeptical of that premise (and there's no point blaming me if you think the IPCC and the Al Gore crowd are using the word "anthropogenic" incorrectly).
Then you are stupid.
Even your most ardent deniers admit that anthropomorphic climate change is a real thing.
Do you really think you are smarter then the tens of thousand independent scientists and every legit scientific association in North America?
They all understand that we are presently experiencing anthropomorphic climate change.
And believe me, you aren't even smart enough to understand their footnotes.

-- You repeatedly talk about the IPCC and "scientists" as if the two are interchangeable. They are not. The IPCC is dominated by a political agenda, not a scientific one.
That conspiracy theory is ridiculous.
The IPCC represents 10's of thousands of scientists from over 100 countries.
How could they make 97% of them work on a 'political' agenda if it goes against the science?
Ridiculous.

-- I do not argue that we should ignore empirical evidence. Quite the opposite. I have argued the empirical evidence clearly shows the IPCC's predictions (or projections, if you prefer) have been spectacularly wrong. I believe we should pay attention to that evidence, not ignore it.
What you call 'empirical evidence' is nit picking and cherry picking.
You ignore increases in global surface temperatures, increases in CO2 levels, extreme weather events, glacial melts, arctic ice melts and the now revealed massive melting of Antarctic glaciers.
Those are empirical evidence.


Finally, if I am "a joke," why are you so eager to spend a month or so debating my responses to the latest alarming headlines?
I'm currently trying to figure out if there is hope for stupid people, that they can actually learn.
So far it doesn't look good.
 

blackrock13

Banned
Jun 6, 2009
40,087
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So, according to you, "tens of thousands" of scientists couldn't spot an "unrealistic" assertion in an IPCC report?

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2010/jan/20/ipcc-himalayan-glaciers-mistake

I see.
Since that assertion was made in 2007 and the admission was made in 2010, much like the 1922 prediction from the deniers. I wonder how the prediction hold up today with more information and a longer timeline. Nothing like something a little more contemporary.

[h=1]Fears Grow of a Himalayan Tsunami as Glaciers Melt[/h]
Melting glaciers and rising temperatures are forming a potentially destructive combination in the deep ravines of Nepal’s Himalayan foothills, and the Phulping Bridge — on the Araniko Highway linking Kathmandu with the Chinese border — is a good place to see just how dangerous the pairing can be.
A bare concrete pillar stands there, little noticed by the drivers of trucks, laden with Chinese goods, that rattle along at high speeds across the bridge, about 110 km from Kathmandu. The pillar is all that’s left of the original Phulping Bridge, which was swept away by floodwaters in July 1981. The deluge was not caused, as is common, by monsoon rain, but by the bursting of a glacial lake. The force of the raging torrent was strong enough to dislodge boulders 30 m across. They still lie in the Bhote Koshi River.
(PHOTOS: Vanishing Glaciers)
Glacial-lake outbursts, as they’re known, are not new. They occur every time the natural dams of ice or accumulated rocky deposits that hold back glacial lakes give way because of seismic activity, erosion or simple water pressure. Millions of cubic meters of meltwater can be released as a result, sometimes over the course of a few days or — far more frighteningly — in a matter of minutes. During the past century, at least 50 glacial-lake outbursts were recorded in the Himalayas, according to data maintained by the Kathmandu-based International Centre for Integrated Mountain Development (ICIMOD). But what is new is that the lakes are forming and growing much more quickly because the glaciers are melting faster than ever.
The potential of a Himalayan tsunami is a hazard of global warming that has yet to be given much attention by outsiders, but it is a daily preoccupation of ICIMOD program coordinator Pradeep Mool. He told TIME that there were some 20,000 glacial lakes in the Hindu Kush Himalayan region, extending from Afghanistan to Burma. In some parts of the Himalayas, like the Dudh Koshi area in eastern Nepal, the melt rate is alarmingly high.
“Almost all the glaciers [in Dudh Koshi] are retreating at rates of 10 to 59 m annually,” Mool says, “but the rate for some has accelerated during the last half-decade to 74 m annually.” He explained that this had created 24 new glacial lakes in the area, which now had a total of 34 such bodies of water. At least 10 of them are considered dangerous.
Research by a team from the University of Milan, released this month, found that in the past 50 years glaciers in the Everest region had shrunk by 13% and the snow line was now seen about 180 m higher up. Sudeep Thakuri, a researcher with the team, says the melting was most likely caused by warming temperatures and was certain to continue. Since 1992, premonsoon and winter temperatures in the Everest region have increased by 0.6ºC.
Earthquakes also add to the risk. “Earthquakes could act as major triggers for glacial-lake outbursts,” Mool says. He feels that much better monitoring of the lakes is needed to get a proper assessment of the dangers.
Down in the Bhote Koshi Valley, villagers now rely on text messages for warnings of potential floods, landslides and other hazards. The power station near the village of Jhirpu Phulpingkatt will issue a warning of a glacial-lake outburst, but people in the area will only have a few minutes’ notice before the floodwaters arrive, and only glacial-lake outbursts in Nepali territory can be immediately detected. There are at least six glacial lakes close by in Tibet that lie outside the warning system, and their outbursts will be detected only when the waters enter Nepali territory, according to the plant’s acting manager Janak Raj Pant. But regardless of where an outburst originates, he says, “All of us would have to run for our lives.” Seaborne tsunamis have already unleashed enough terror this century. Let’s hope that no comparable disasters dwell in the Himalayas’ icy ravines.

http://world.time.com/2013/05/27/fears-grow-of-a-himalayan-tsunami-as-glaciers-melt/
 
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