Cy Young and MVP Choices
- Thread starter Ranger68
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NL's a total no-brainer.the_big_E said:
Bonds, even if the Giants lose every game and fold at the end of the season.
I ain't rippin' ya, Big_e.
The AL's still awfully close. If Ichiro sets the record, he deserves it. If not, it's up for grabs. I liked Carlos Guillen until he tore his ACL. Sheffield may be the front-runner. I maintain that Ramirez wouldn't be a very good pick.
Re: Ichiro
He didn't win in '91. Ripken did. From a sixth place team.
Are you arguing that he should have? No way I can see.
That the voters gave him lots of votes because he played for a winner? His team was 84-78, second in the East. He got lots of votes because he led the league in dingers and ribs, the two most important categories to the majority of the voters, forget about team finish.
I'm not really sure what you mean ......
In any case, fully a third of the time, the MVP doesn't come from a first-place team. Texas was awful last year, but Rodriguez won.
Again, I think that if Ichiro sets the hits record, he'll win. If not, probably not. He's among the most *deserving* candidates, in any case.
Fielder in '91?Don said:
He didn't win in '91. Ripken did. From a sixth place team.
Are you arguing that he should have? No way I can see.
That the voters gave him lots of votes because he played for a winner? His team was 84-78, second in the East. He got lots of votes because he led the league in dingers and ribs, the two most important categories to the majority of the voters, forget about team finish.
I'm not really sure what you mean ......
In any case, fully a third of the time, the MVP doesn't come from a first-place team. Texas was awful last year, but Rodriguez won.
Again, I think that if Ichiro sets the hits record, he'll win. If not, probably not. He's among the most *deserving* candidates, in any case.
Re: The Value of the Single ....
Ichiro has 247 hits
Ichiro has 211 singles
Ichiro has 36 xbh
Ichiro has a SecA of .194, 74th of 78 qualifying hitters
Ichiro has an SLG% of .461, 40th
Hey, I'd be an idiot ( which Ranger already thinks ) if I really thought 247 hits didn't show Ichiro to be an incredible hitter, but he is the definition of " Punch & Judy ". That's not a shot at him, or a knock. It's a fact.
Ranger also likes to cite park factor, and how great Ichiro would be if he played half of his games at Fenway. Why is Fenway a great hitters park? Primarily, the green monster! In limited action at Fenway, it doesn't appear he has taken advantage of it. See his hit chart.
http://seattle.mariners.mlb.com/NAS..._hitting_chart.jsp?playerID=400085&statType=1
In fact, look at his Safeco chart. It doesn't seem he'd be taking advantage of the wall, does it? He'd still be a great hitter but I doubt Fenway would be as much help to him as it is to the bangers the REDSOX have chosen to take advantage of it.
OK, here's an explanation of "Punch and Judy".Ranger68 said:Seattle scored *16* runs last night with 24 hits. But, 21 of them were singles.
I guess punch and Judy hitters can be useful, too.
Ichiro has ten games left to get ten more hits. Last place or not, this record has stood for eighty years, and if he breaks it, he deserves the MVP award.
Ichiro has 247 hits
Ichiro has 211 singles
Ichiro has 36 xbh
Ichiro has a SecA of .194, 74th of 78 qualifying hitters
Ichiro has an SLG% of .461, 40th
Hey, I'd be an idiot ( which Ranger already thinks ) if I really thought 247 hits didn't show Ichiro to be an incredible hitter, but he is the definition of " Punch & Judy ". That's not a shot at him, or a knock. It's a fact.
Ranger also likes to cite park factor, and how great Ichiro would be if he played half of his games at Fenway. Why is Fenway a great hitters park? Primarily, the green monster! In limited action at Fenway, it doesn't appear he has taken advantage of it. See his hit chart.
http://seattle.mariners.mlb.com/NAS..._hitting_chart.jsp?playerID=400085&statType=1
In fact, look at his Safeco chart. It doesn't seem he'd be taking advantage of the wall, does it? He'd still be a great hitter but I doubt Fenway would be as much help to him as it is to the bangers the REDSOX have chosen to take advantage of it.
Re: Re: Ichiro
I felt Ripkin got the win in '91 because he rebounded from a bad year and they were pulling for him (the streak).
Oops. I guess I meant '90 (the year he hit 51). People felt Rickey beat out Cecil that year because the A's had the best record in the AL and Cecil's team had a lolsing record.Ranger68 said:
I felt Ripkin got the win in '91 because he rebounded from a bad year and they were pulling for him (the streak).
Henderson was a *drastically* superior player in 1990. Fielder's OPS was well short of Ricky, and there's that little matter of 65 SB to none, not to mention that Hindu actually played some defense, unlike Fielder who was basically a big obstacle for the baserunners.
Also not to mention that Fielder got to play in cozy Detroit, while Ricky played in a less hitting-friendly park.
Ricky was a way better player, and that was rewarded.
In '91, Ripken was a drastically superior player as well.
Also not to mention that Fielder got to play in cozy Detroit, while Ricky played in a less hitting-friendly park.
Ricky was a way better player, and that was rewarded.
In '91, Ripken was a drastically superior player as well.
Voters tend to love a player who is the HR and RBI champ of a league. And Cecil was the first player to hit 50 in a very long time which gave it added emphasis. At the time, hitting 50 was a very very big deal. Rickey had a great year and I felt he really was more valuable but I was a touch surprised Cecil didn't get it.
Ichiro Update
George Sisler: 257 hits
Ichiro Suzuki: 252
Hits needed to break record: 6
Games left: 6
George Sisler: 257 hits
Ichiro Suzuki: 252
Hits needed to break record: 6
Games left: 6
I've heard lots about how Sisler's season was 154 games vs. Ichiro's 162, but not much about how Suzuki hits in death valley for hitters.
I still think that if he breaks *the all-time single season hit record* he deserves the MVP.
Otherwise, it's too close to call. (Of course, that won't stop me. )
I still think that if he breaks *the all-time single season hit record* he deserves the MVP.
Otherwise, it's too close to call. (Of course, that won't stop me.
)Considering Ichiro's hits are mainly singles with many infield hits, Safeco's dimentions doesn't hurt him as much as it might hurt power hitters.
And breaking a record shouldn't be a major factor in an MVP award. McGwire set the HR record the year he hit 70 but didn't (rightly) win the MVP award.
And breaking a record shouldn't be a major factor in an MVP award. McGwire set the HR record the year he hit 70 but didn't (rightly) win the MVP award.
Ichiro could hit in Death Valley. He could hit anywhere. He is not the type of hitter who is affected by park factor.
"Rightly"?? How right was it for Sammy Sosa to win it that year?!Don said:
Sosa won it hitting in the friendly confines of Wrigley. His OPS was *200 points* less than McGwire's.
He won it because he had 11 more RBI and 4 more runs. Big whoop. The Cubs finished ahead of the Cards, by one place, but didn't even win the division (though they did get the wild card).
McGwire should have won it that year.
And most of Ichiro's hits are driven through the infield. Anyway, no, it doesn't hurt him as much as power hitters, but it's still a bad place to hit. Park factor affects everybody, in different ways.
As for Safeco, here's an excerpt from an article talking about park factors this year:
"Now that we've looked at the places that have been friendly to hitters, let's check out the other end of the spectrum: pitcher's parks. For overall run scoring, no place has been worse than Safeco Field in Seattle, which has cut runs by 18.0%. This shouldn't come as much of a surprise, as Safeco Field has been a great place for pitchers since it opened in 1999.
Interestingly though, it hasn't been all that difficult to hit for power in Seattle this year (despite what the Mariners' hitters would have you believe), as Safeco Field has actually been favorable for hitting both homers (+2.8%) and doubles (+3.8%). What has really cut down on the run scoring in Seattle is that Safeco Field has been the worst place in baseball to hit triples (-51.3%) and singles, as hits in general have been cut down by 14.5% despite increases in doubles and homers."
"And perhaps most amazingly, what Ichiro! has been able to do while playing half his games at Safeco Field is incredible. His home ballpark has cut hits by 14.6% this year, more than any other place in baseball, and yet he's hitting .374 and about the break George Sisler's all-time record for hits in a season. Not coincidentally, Ichiro! has hit .409 on the road this year, but "only" .334 in Seattle."
Sorta puts the lie to the previous statements about it not being hard to hit singles in Safeco.
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/park-factoring/
"Now that we've looked at the places that have been friendly to hitters, let's check out the other end of the spectrum: pitcher's parks. For overall run scoring, no place has been worse than Safeco Field in Seattle, which has cut runs by 18.0%. This shouldn't come as much of a surprise, as Safeco Field has been a great place for pitchers since it opened in 1999.
Interestingly though, it hasn't been all that difficult to hit for power in Seattle this year (despite what the Mariners' hitters would have you believe), as Safeco Field has actually been favorable for hitting both homers (+2.8%) and doubles (+3.8%). What has really cut down on the run scoring in Seattle is that Safeco Field has been the worst place in baseball to hit triples (-51.3%) and singles, as hits in general have been cut down by 14.5% despite increases in doubles and homers."
"And perhaps most amazingly, what Ichiro! has been able to do while playing half his games at Safeco Field is incredible. His home ballpark has cut hits by 14.6% this year, more than any other place in baseball, and yet he's hitting .374 and about the break George Sisler's all-time record for hits in a season. Not coincidentally, Ichiro! has hit .409 on the road this year, but "only" .334 in Seattle."
Sorta puts the lie to the previous statements about it not being hard to hit singles in Safeco.
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/park-factoring/
Okay, I'm *really not* pumping the guy (okay, maybe I am a bit), it's more like I'm defending him from attacks in here and elsewhere (Peter Gammons, I'm looking at you!). LOL
But, here's a little something to mull on about my favourite little Japanese tyke:
"The Amazing Ichiro
Everybody is keeping an eye on Ichiro Suzuki and his chase for the single-season record for hits, as well they should. What impresses me the most is not that gaudy hit total (he's at 254 after two hits on Tuesday), but what it implicitly means.
What it means is that Ichiro has accomplished the impressive task of keeping his batting average really high while piling up a ton of at-bats. Quite simply, the more at-bats you have, the harder it is to keep your batting average in the clouds.
Rob Neyer discussed this when Nomar Garciaparra flirted with a .400 batting average in 2000. He said that Garciaparra wouldn't reach .400 because he doesn't walk much, and that means he's going to have to keep his average up in more at-bats, which is difficult. If that's not immediately apparent to you, here's a summary of an example he provided that paints the picture clearly.
In any given day, a great many hitters bat .400 (36 players did so Tuesday). In any given week, there are usually at least 10-12 hitters who bat at least .400. In any given month, a few players usually hit at least .400. In any given year, nobody's hit .400 since Ted Williams.
So, how amazing is it that Ichiro may set the record for most at-bats in a season, and he's still hitting .372?
Well, coming into this year, there had been 103 instances of a batter getting at least 660 at-bats in a season. The combined batting average of all those players in all those seasons was .299. Ichiro will not only set the record for highest batting average by a player during a season in which he had at least 660 at-bats, he will be the first player to hit above .355. Five players have hit at least .350."
Hopefully, all the nonsense about Manny Ramirez winning it will stay away.
But, here's a little something to mull on about my favourite little Japanese tyke:
"The Amazing Ichiro
Everybody is keeping an eye on Ichiro Suzuki and his chase for the single-season record for hits, as well they should. What impresses me the most is not that gaudy hit total (he's at 254 after two hits on Tuesday), but what it implicitly means.
What it means is that Ichiro has accomplished the impressive task of keeping his batting average really high while piling up a ton of at-bats. Quite simply, the more at-bats you have, the harder it is to keep your batting average in the clouds.
Rob Neyer discussed this when Nomar Garciaparra flirted with a .400 batting average in 2000. He said that Garciaparra wouldn't reach .400 because he doesn't walk much, and that means he's going to have to keep his average up in more at-bats, which is difficult. If that's not immediately apparent to you, here's a summary of an example he provided that paints the picture clearly.
In any given day, a great many hitters bat .400 (36 players did so Tuesday). In any given week, there are usually at least 10-12 hitters who bat at least .400. In any given month, a few players usually hit at least .400. In any given year, nobody's hit .400 since Ted Williams.
So, how amazing is it that Ichiro may set the record for most at-bats in a season, and he's still hitting .372?
Well, coming into this year, there had been 103 instances of a batter getting at least 660 at-bats in a season. The combined batting average of all those players in all those seasons was .299. Ichiro will not only set the record for highest batting average by a player during a season in which he had at least 660 at-bats, he will be the first player to hit above .355. Five players have hit at least .350."
Hopefully, all the nonsense about Manny Ramirez winning it will stay away.
This has nothing to do with CY Young or MVP winners but I didnt feel Adam Dunn warranted a thread entirely dedicated to him.
But he is now the new K king, struck out 3 times today giving him 191 on the year. But he has one of the quirkiest stats I feel, he has 101 RBIs for the season and NOT one of those RBIs has come via a sacrifice fly. You would think he has at least one, I found that stat astonishing for some reason!
But he is now the new K king, struck out 3 times today giving him 191 on the year. But he has one of the quirkiest stats I feel, he has 101 RBIs for the season and NOT one of those RBIs has come via a sacrifice fly. You would think he has at least one, I found that stat astonishing for some reason!
well, as the regular season comes to it's last weekend, i think we can now have a better picture of the AL and NL MVP's and Cy Young winners. only one is halfway clear cut...
NL MVP....barry bonds. he has the fewest AB's of most of the top NL hitters, but, glance over to his eye popping 225 walks, WOW! that doesnt begin to tell how many at-bats, even when pitcher's do pitch to him, that they do not throw him anything good to hit, and he still does.
runners-up, adrian beltre and albert pujols, both having outstanding years in their respective own rights.
this is probably the easiest award too.
NL CY YOUNG.... randy johnson. his win/loss record is not indicative of the outstanding year he has otherwise had. look at the d'backs record, and his 15 wins are pretty impressive. which brings me to the last point, the team he plays on just stinks.
cases, good ones, could be made for houston picther roger clemens, san fran pitcher jason schmidt, and clemens rotation partner, roy oswalt. only clemens realistically should be able to stop randy here.
AL MVP... hmmm, alot of very good seasons being had by a few players, but no one head and shoulders. manny?? great year yes, but, he hits in a great hitter's park, and is well protected in that line-up. gary sheffield, same as above. which brings me to two guys who really should be one-two right now, ichiro suzuki and vladimir guerrero. ichiro, is having a season for the ages. he will break sisler's 84 year old record. as ranger has pointed out, having over 600 AB's, and still hitting in the high 300's, is pretty impressive. but, i do think vladdy should win this one. he has led his team on it's late charge, and now they go into a three-game weekend showdown with the A's, to see who goes through. aside from being consistent all year through, he has stepped up his game when it mattered most. he should be the man. but either ichiro or vladdy would be deserving.
mark texiera has quietly had a great year, in only his 2nd year, as has his 3rd-year teammate, hank blalock. two potential future MVP winners here. A-Rod has had his usual great year, and paul konerko has very quietly, put together a great rebound year.
AL MVP...johan santana versus curt schilling. santana should win this one with comfort, but, boston is a major media center, and minny is not. hope it doesnt become a major factor.
my two cents...
Plyrs99
NL MVP....barry bonds. he has the fewest AB's of most of the top NL hitters, but, glance over to his eye popping 225 walks, WOW! that doesnt begin to tell how many at-bats, even when pitcher's do pitch to him, that they do not throw him anything good to hit, and he still does.
runners-up, adrian beltre and albert pujols, both having outstanding years in their respective own rights.
this is probably the easiest award too.
NL CY YOUNG.... randy johnson. his win/loss record is not indicative of the outstanding year he has otherwise had. look at the d'backs record, and his 15 wins are pretty impressive. which brings me to the last point, the team he plays on just stinks.
cases, good ones, could be made for houston picther roger clemens, san fran pitcher jason schmidt, and clemens rotation partner, roy oswalt. only clemens realistically should be able to stop randy here.
AL MVP... hmmm, alot of very good seasons being had by a few players, but no one head and shoulders. manny?? great year yes, but, he hits in a great hitter's park, and is well protected in that line-up. gary sheffield, same as above. which brings me to two guys who really should be one-two right now, ichiro suzuki and vladimir guerrero. ichiro, is having a season for the ages. he will break sisler's 84 year old record. as ranger has pointed out, having over 600 AB's, and still hitting in the high 300's, is pretty impressive. but, i do think vladdy should win this one. he has led his team on it's late charge, and now they go into a three-game weekend showdown with the A's, to see who goes through. aside from being consistent all year through, he has stepped up his game when it mattered most. he should be the man. but either ichiro or vladdy would be deserving.
mark texiera has quietly had a great year, in only his 2nd year, as has his 3rd-year teammate, hank blalock. two potential future MVP winners here. A-Rod has had his usual great year, and paul konerko has very quietly, put together a great rebound year.
AL MVP...johan santana versus curt schilling. santana should win this one with comfort, but, boston is a major media center, and minny is not. hope it doesnt become a major factor.
my two cents...
Plyrs99
Ok, my picks:
NL MVP: Adrian Beltre. Top 3 in each of the triple-crown stats (BA, HR, RBI). He has carried that Dodger team offensively. Yes Bonds has carried his teams like he always does. But this is basically one of those "lets give it to someone else beside him" picks like in the NBA when Jordan could have won it every year but they wanted to share the wealth once in awhile (Barkley, Malone, etc). Beltre has had an amazing year hitting in a pitcher friendly park.
NL CY YOUNG: I don't know. I guess I'd give it to Clemens. RJ's W-L hurts him and we all know how much W-L is to the voters. Clemens has been good enough. And I bet people would like to give him an NL CY award with all his AL awards.
AL MVP: Vlad. Great year in his first year in the AL. .338 avg for a free swinger who does not walk much (see plyrs99 analysis above on Ichiro why this is impressive). And that .338 w/204 hits comes with a heck of a lot of power and not a lot of K's. Ichiro has 52 more hits but I'd take Vlad's production in a heartbeat. Also the Angels are tied for 1st.
AL CY YOUNG: Curt Schilling. It'll be very close w/Johan. But two things happened recently that helped Curt. Johan lost and Pedro got rocked in his two games vs the Yanks. It is clear that Curt is the man in Boston so splitting vote w/Pedro is less likely than when both were in the groove. Also the voters are itching to give Curt a CY.
NL MVP: Adrian Beltre. Top 3 in each of the triple-crown stats (BA, HR, RBI). He has carried that Dodger team offensively. Yes Bonds has carried his teams like he always does. But this is basically one of those "lets give it to someone else beside him" picks like in the NBA when Jordan could have won it every year but they wanted to share the wealth once in awhile (Barkley, Malone, etc). Beltre has had an amazing year hitting in a pitcher friendly park.
NL CY YOUNG: I don't know. I guess I'd give it to Clemens. RJ's W-L hurts him and we all know how much W-L is to the voters. Clemens has been good enough. And I bet people would like to give him an NL CY award with all his AL awards.
AL MVP: Vlad. Great year in his first year in the AL. .338 avg for a free swinger who does not walk much (see plyrs99 analysis above on Ichiro why this is impressive). And that .338 w/204 hits comes with a heck of a lot of power and not a lot of K's. Ichiro has 52 more hits but I'd take Vlad's production in a heartbeat. Also the Angels are tied for 1st.
AL CY YOUNG: Curt Schilling. It'll be very close w/Johan. But two things happened recently that helped Curt. Johan lost and Pedro got rocked in his two games vs the Yanks. It is clear that Curt is the man in Boston so splitting vote w/Pedro is less likely than when both were in the groove. Also the voters are itching to give Curt a CY.
