Criminalizing Clients at the Conservative Party Convention in Calgary

freedom3

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IMO, assymetric criminalization will be a tough nut to swallow in Canada. Unlike Sweden (which appears to have become a nightmarishly nasty Feminazi State), no one in Canada believes in it. The newspapers will slam it. The man and woman in the street will laugh at it. The judges will despise it as being a sleazoid way for the Tories to avoid having to admit they lost Bedford. It will be a law with little or no public support and a joke throughout the country. Even the cops will hate it.
The question is what will the Conservative base think and Harper knows they will love it. As for the courts, parliament has this power. Even Alan Young says so.
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
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Im an American (from Buffalo) that comes to Canada for the hobby. I have limited knowledge of Canadian politics. Is there any chance this actually becomes law?
If in the case they're currently considering, the Supremes do not rule that it's the constitutional right of any adults to decide for themselves who to fuck and why, so whether or not money changed hands is no one's business but theirs, then the opening will exist to propose a bill to make buying and or selling sex a criminal offence.

Once that's before Parliament, those opposed run all the risks of being characterized as sluts and whoremongers, and in this Parliament the governing Puffin Poop* party's record suggests that will be its first and primary line of attack. Their consistent strategy of packaging small but objectionable measures in with unassailable omnibus spending bills whose defeat or even amendment could bring down the government has been quite successful, and there's no doubt it's how they would handle this measure.

Anything to hang onto what support they have. Especially if it comes withe the Bonus Opportunity to smear and demonize the opposition.
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* Googling Puffin Poop will bring up the attack ad on YouTube; it amply demonstrates the gverning Conservative Party of Canada's customary standards of public debate. As in the current scandal about party payments by his chief of staff totalling over a $100K to buy a member's silence, our PM was somehow entirely unaware of what was going on. Meditating no doubt.
 

mandrill

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Aug 23, 2001
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As for your impression "that it would not stand in Canadian law", give your hero Alan Young a call. He will tell you to read the transcript of his submissions to the court. He outright told them that it is open to parliament to do whatever they want.

Our only hope is for the Supreme Court to allow the appeal and reverse the courts below.
Err..... EVERY lawyer's brief in a constitutional case starts with the proposition that Parliament can do what it wishes, as it represents the Canadian electorate. The brief then adds that there is an exception to this rule. The exception is that Parliament cannot contravene the constitution. The brief then states that the impugned law contravenes the constitution and sets out the reasons why the lawyer feels this way.

Every law that has ever been nullified for constitutional infringement has been analyzed this way. It's an academic convention in constitutional law analysis and does not mean what you believe it means.
 

d_jedi

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I think it is a mistake to suggest the Bedford v. Canada challenge by Alan Young is part of the problem.

The idea of asymetric criminalization was mentioned during the recent arguments before the Supreme Court of Canada and the impression I got was that it would not stand in Canadian law. There could be an ugly mess for a while but at the end there should be a large gain for sex workers rights.

Inaction and just keeping your head down, hoping everything will just blow over can be a dangerous strategy. Gay rights have progressed because activists held parades, fought legal battles and got in peoples faces.

Regardless of whether or not we had Bedford v. Canada, the prohibitionists were going to push for the Swedish scam, saying how much they care about the poor prostituted women and how the helpless and hopeless creatures will be better off with laws that make paying them a criminal offence. I expect it is being pushed in other countries where there has been no substantial challenge to existing laws.

The Himel decision is a huge step forward, especially if it is confirmed by the Supreme Court of Canada, regardless of how the Conservatives act or react.
Conservative governments tend to be reactionary. With regard to social policy, the current government certainly is (at least when they want to appeal to their "base" supporters). They make decisions based on their ideology (which in this case is.. sex should only be between a man and a woman who are married to each other solely for the purpose of procreation. In the missionary position.)

Basically, as I understand it, the case is as follows:
If prostitution is legal, then a number of other laws surrounding it (communicating, living off the avails, etc.) are unconstitutional.

Remove that assumption (by criminalizing prostitution), and the rest becomes a moot point.

Is there anything that could stop such a law? I don't think so. I have my doubts that the Supreme court would ever say someone has the fundamental right under the constitution to sell sexual services.. they will likely punt that one to Parliament. And if such a law were introduced, its supporters would be vocal, while it's opposition would be much more subdued (who amongst us - guys or SPs - would be willing to take a stand and openly and publicly support prostitution? Not many!).

Look at how the government reacted to the Insite case as instructive. (For better or worse) I don't think there will be another safe-injection site opened while the current government is in power.
 

TeasePlease

Cockasian Brother
Aug 3, 2010
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Is there anything that could stop such a law? I don't think so. I have my doubts that the Supreme court would ever say someone has the fundamental right under the constitution to sell sexual services.. they will likely punt that one to Parliament. And if such a law were introduced, its supporters would be vocal, while it's opposition would be much more subdued (who amongst us - guys or SPs - would be willing to take a stand and openly and publicly support prostitution? Not many!).
You're right. I don't think there is any enshrined right to bust a nut.

As for freedom of choice, etc. We have many laws that impose restrictions on our "freedoms". Seat belts, sale of narcotics, firearm possession, etc. It's called social policy.
 

freedom3

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Err..... EVERY lawyer's brief in a constitutional case starts with the proposition that Parliament can do what it wishes, as it represents the Canadian electorate. The brief then adds that there is an exception to this rule. The exception is that Parliament cannot contravene the constitution. The brief then states that the impugned law contravenes the constitution and sets out the reasons why the lawyer feels this way.

Every law that has ever been nullified for constitutional infringement has been analyzed this way. It's an academic convention in constitutional law analysis and does not mean what you believe it means.
I was referring to Alan Young telling the court that it would be constitutional to have an outright ban on prostitution. His argument was that since parliament didn't currently have this ban, then the disputed law was unconstitutional. But, when asked, he was very clear that one remedy for parliament was to proceed to institute this ban.
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
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I was referring to Alan Young telling the court that it would be constitutional to have an outright ban on prostitution. His argument was that since parliament didn't currently have this ban, then the disputed law was unconstitutional. But, when asked, he was very clear that one remedy for parliament was to proceed to institute this ban.
That seems to be the case as d_jedi's outlined it above: That a legal activity can't be so hedged by criminal illegalities as to be effectively criminalized itself. The Charter doesn't permit making something a crime that way.

But the principle that 'the state has no place in our bedrooms' at last made homosexuality non-criminal before there were written Charter Rights, and that principle should be enough to continue to maintain and protect the legal regime we now enjoy. I suggest we all focus on and adopt it as a slogan.

But it won't help without people speaking up.
 

d_jedi

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That seems to be the case as d_jedi's outlined it above: That a legal activity can't be so hedged by criminal illegalities as to be effectively criminalized itself. The Charter doesn't permit making something a crime that way.

But the principle that 'the state has no place in our bedrooms' at last made homosexuality non-criminal before there were written Charter Rights, and that principle should be enough to continue to maintain and protect the legal regime we now enjoy. I suggest we all focus on and adopt it as a slogan.

But it won't help without people speaking up.
The idea that "the state has no place in our bedrooms" is one we can all support and certainly makes a lot of sense. But I don't believe it's a legal principle, protected by the Charter of Rights, in that sense. If it were so (to use an extreme example), then the laws on the books regarding incest (like I said.. extreme example) ought to be ruled unconstitutional.
 

krazyplayer

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Jun 9, 2004
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Everyone needs to call their conservative politicians (before the convention)and tell them to vote no on criminalizing the purchase of sexual services. This is a blatantly sexist approach wherein all the sex workers are deemed to be slaves & other types of victims and all of the johns are predators. This is absurd. It is anti-male. The purchase of sexual services has never been illegal in Canada. I doubt we will start now.

The liberals have already floated several similar ideas btw. Joyce murray who ran for the Lib leadership had this in her platform. The NDP is the only party that had sex workers rights accepted as part of it's constitution. They are the most progressive party on this.

Con anti-john resolution is on P. 17 : http://www.cpcconvention.ca/wp-cont...TIONS-1-82-EN-FINAL-VERSION-May-17-2013-3.pdf
 

canada-man

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Jun 16, 2007
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from the throne speech text

Canadians also know that prostitution victimizes women and threatens the safety of our communities. Our Government will vigorously defend the constitutionality of Canada’s prostitution laws.
it looks like they will defend the current laws
 

d_jedi

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from the throne speech text



it looks like they will defend the current laws
They will defend the current laws (no surprise there).. but I strongly suspect they will go further than that if the current laws are ruled unconstitutional.
When they start with the false premise that "Canadians also know that prostitution victimizes women and threatens the safety of our communities," how can they not act if the evil Supreme court wants to corrupt our children by putting a brothel next to every school?! Think of the children!!
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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...

Because I'm assuming the gay prostitution industry will also be hurt if Conservatives get their way
Harper will have support from some of the left on criminalizing johns but since gay prostitution is not about men victimizing women, they likely won't care about that aspect.
 

Mr Deeds

Muff Diver Extraordinaire
Mar 10, 2013
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The Conservative Party Convention in Calgary this week is going to vote on a proposal to make paying for sex a criminal offence.
Well then everyone in Canada is going to jail because we're all paying those morons to screw us
 

TeasePlease

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Aug 3, 2010
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Was there any doubt? Now we wait to see if they actually table any legislation.
 
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