Civil War: MAGA in Turmoil

[Shaquille Oatmeal]

They approve deporting illegals period.

No, they say they support some amount of deportations, which is conditional on certain criteria.
Not blanket deportations of everybody.

 

[Valcazar]

They don't but they are a criminal org that have been categorized as terrorists..

And this means they aren't civilians but are military targets?

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

You are misusing the term "potential citizens" in the report and using AI to misinterpret it out of context.
The report says:

The term "Potential Citizens" here denotes uncertainty on the person's status.
Not green card holders or others who are not citizens.
Not to mention, non-citizens who are on the pathway to become legal citizens such as green hard holders, can also not be deported for no reason.
That is still unlawful and unconstitutional

Lets say your interpretation of "potential citizens" is correct. From Valcie's article:

" Available data indicate ICE and CBP took enforcement actions against some U.S. citizens. For example, available ICE data indicate that ICE arrested 674, detained 121, and removed 70 potential U.S. citizens from fiscal year 2015 through the second quarter of fiscal year 2020"

In that case it means the 70 potential US citizens were investigated and deemed not to be US citizens.
Until you show evidence that contradicts that its the only conclusion you can make

 

[Shaquille Oatmeal]

In that case it means the 70 potential US citizens were investigated and deemed not to be US citizens.
Until you show evidence that contradicts that its the only conclusion you can make

That is not necessary.
The default position here should be to distrust the administration.
Given the premise of the article which I quoted earlier:

In recent years, some U.S. citizens have claimed they were mistakenly identified as foreign nationals

And given the Trump administration's documented actions to actually remove citizens:

Detention and deportation of American citizens in the second Trump administration - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I think it is reasonable to conclude that the Trump administration's actions are most likely unlawful and unconstitutional and motivated by an underlying ethno-cultural agenda.

 

[richaceg]

Do you have difficulty reading?

You have difficulty proving he's fascist.

 

[Valcazar]

My bad then, I read it wrong.

But the paragraph you posted actually makes your case look even worse, because it says Trump deported POTENTIAL citizens, it doesn't say actual citizens.

Maybe they were in the process of getting their US citizenship, but they were suspected criminals or terrorists, and thats why they were deported??

If thats true then it makes Trump's deportations perfectly legal

Again, you could try and, you know, read the article.

I know you proudly argued that Conservatives are dumber, but I'm not sure why you are putting effort into that idea.

"Further, while ICE policy requires officers to document citizenship investigations in ICE data systems, it does not require officers to update the citizenship field after identifying evidence that an individual may be a U.S. citizen. As a result, ICE does not know the extent to which its officers are taking enforcement actions against individuals who could be U.S. citizens."

Does the chart Valcazar posted show deportations of POTENTIAL citizens or ACTUAL US citizens??

Potential, as explained in the text of the report summary.

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

That is not necessary

Actually, that is necessary. You need proof, and you dont have it

 

[Valcazar]

Potential US citizens.
Potential US citizens could potentially be actual citizens, so you cannot be careless with it, which the Trump administration is.

Yes, this is what the report is saying.

 

[Valcazar]

According to Google AI it means they're not actually US citizens.

Another @Valcazar fail

Read: https://www.google.com/search?q=what+does+the+term+Potential+US+citizens+mean?&sca_esv=4d0c9b7f74717d86&sxsrf=AE3TifOFF7Cw58mZyFNz07fdcn_yPoowqw:1765043658629&source=hp&ei=ym00ade-I8vM0PEP89aI0Qk&oq=what+does+the+term+Potential+US+citizens+mean?&gs_lp=EhFtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1ocCIud2hhdCBkb2VzIHRoZSB0ZXJtIFBvdGVudGlhbCBVUyBjaXRpemVucyBtZWFuPzIFECEYoAFI62JQjg5YgGFwAXgAkAEAmAHVAqABkRSqAQcwLjkuNC4xuAEDyAEA-AEBmAIOoALyEqgCLcICBxAjGCcY6gLCAgcQLhgnGOoCwgINECMY8AUYJxjqAhieBsICChAjGPAFGCcY6gLCAg0QIxjwBRgnGMkCGOoCwgIQEAAYAxi0AhjqAhiPAdgBAcICEBAuGAMYtAIY6gIYjwHYAQHCAgYQABgWGB7CAgUQIRifBcICBRAAGO8FwgIEEAAYHsICBhAAGAgYHsICCBAAGKIEGIkFwgIIEAAYgAQYogTCAggQABgHGAgYHsICBBAhGAqYAw3xBXoAyKXi0c9YugYECAEYCpIHBzEuOS4zLjGgB6kmsgcHMC45LjMuMbgH5RLCBwcwLjQuOS4xyAc7gAgA&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-hp

OMG, you asked AI instead of reading?
That's fucking priceless.

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

Again, you could try and, you know, read the article.

I know you proudly argued that Conservatives are dumber, but I'm not sure why you are putting effort into that idea.

"Further, while ICE policy requires officers to document citizenship investigations in ICE data systems, it does not require officers to update the citizenship field after identifying evidence that an individual may be a U.S. citizen. As a result, ICE does not know the extent to which its officers are taking enforcement actions against individuals who could be U.S. citizens."

Then thats simply a bug that needs to be fixed, but it doesnt show Trump is INTENTIONALLY deporting US citizens.
Also, if ICE doesnt know "how many enforcement actions against individuals are against U.S. citizens.", then how could the GAO report possible know it??

If actual US citizens are deported illegally, all they would have to do is call a lawyer, show that lawyer the proper documents, and file a lawsuit.
You might not even have to file a a lawsuit, you could probably just contact US immigration office and have the deportation reversed.

Again, you guys are making mountains out of molehills.
You're good at that though, I'll give you that much

 

[Valcazar]

No, that's not what it means.

Read: https://www.google.com/search?q=what+does+the+term+Potential+US+citizens+mean?&sca_esv=4d0c9b7f74717d86&sxsrf=AE3TifOFF7Cw58mZyFNz07fdcn_yPoowqw:1765043658629&source=hp&ei=ym00ade-I8vM0PEP89aI0Qk&oq=what+does+the+term+Potential+US+citizens+mean?&gs_lp=EhFtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1ocCIud2hhdCBkb2VzIHRoZSB0ZXJtIFBvdGVudGlhbCBVUyBjaXRpemVucyBtZWFuPzIFECEYoAFI62JQjg5YgGFwAXgAkAEAmAHVAqABkRSqAQcwLjkuNC4xuAEDyAEA-AEBmAIOoALyEqgCLcICBxAjGCcY6gLCAgcQLhgnGOoCwgINECMY8AUYJxjqAhieBsICChAjGPAFGCcY6gLCAg0QIxjwBRgnGMkCGOoCwgIQEAAYAxi0AhjqAhiPAdgBAcICEBAuGAMYtAIY6gIYjwHYAQHCAgYQABgWGB7CAgUQIRifBcICBRAAGO8FwgIEEAAYHsICBhAAGAgYHsICCBAAGKIEGIkFwgIIEAAYgAQYogTCAggQABgHGAgYHsICBBAhGAqYAw3xBXoAyKXi0c9YugYECAEYCpIHBzEuOS4zLjGgB6kmsgcHMC45LjMuMbgH5RLCBwcwLjQuOS4xyAc7gAgA&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-hp

And then you doubled down?

 

[Shaquille Oatmeal]

You need proof...

Yes, that is what am saying.
You need proof and a removal order to deport.
The administration doesn't seem to have either which is kind of the problem.

 

[Valcazar]

I doubt anyone here is really an expert on U.S. immigration law.
I have a hard time following the immigration debate when the media outlet and the reporter clearly are showing bias or leaving out details.
I read an article about an illegal immigrant not getting due process. I then find another discussing a conviction or evading justice for a violent crime. In some instances, the reporter vaguely mentions appealing court decisions.

Now we have obvious biases here, but I know some of us don't necessarily believe that people in our countries illegally are entitled to extended appeals processes. In my opinion, this just supports the Biden-era thought process. Get them into the country and we will figure out the rest later. You know they're "potential citizens". I guess "undocumented" is no longer registering with a majority of the public.

That's a lot of motivated reasoning, Wyatt.

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

Yes, that is what am saying

You need proof US citizens were deported for no reason.

Do you have this proof?? Please post it

 

[Valcazar]

Lets say your interpretation of "potential citizens" is correct. From Valcie's article:



In that case it means the 70 potential US citizens were investigated and deemed not to be US citizens.
Until you show evidence that contradicts that its the only conclusion you can make

No it does not show that.
Again, have you tried reading the piece, instead of trying to mine it for sound bites to try and defend your position?

Or you could read the whole report if you wanted to.

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

No it does not show that.
Again, have you tried reading the piece, instead of trying to mine it for sound bites to try and defend your position?

Or you could read the whole report if you wanted to

Respond to this: https://terb.cc/xenforo/threads/civil-war-maga-in-turmoil.906975/post-9202893

 

[Shaquille Oatmeal]

You need proof US citizens were deported for no reason.
Do you have this proof?? Please post it

Read the report and the wiki article.

 

[silentkisser]

Even the U.S. imports capital goods from abroad. The other inputs Canadian labor at 72 cents U.S. and the abundant raw materials per capita are the advantage. If you were really interested and open-minded, you could read one of the Canadian banks' good white papers on Canadian productivity and business investment.

I have often heard the Canadian economy compared to the Australian economy. The Australian economy is thousands of miles away from all the other major markets. China is the closest and a brutal competitor only interested in commodities. Canada's proximity to the U.S. market is an incredible geographic advantage.

I don't think the Canadian corporate tax rates are low considering both Federal and Provincial rates. Canadian government policy such as taxation and regulation is more comparable to the European framework. However, Europe struggles with its own growth and productivity. Canada is also not in Europe.

I totally understand the advantage of the lower Canadian dollar. But, saying the US imports good overseas is a bit disingenuous to this conversation. Their dollar has significantly more buying power internationally, so it isn't really a fair comparison. And, I totally agree, Canada and Australia are different. We have the world's largest economy about an 90 minutes away from Toronto, and 90% or the Canadian population is within 100km of the US border. The reality is, we got lazy. We expected the US to respect us and pay a fair price (maybe even slightly discounted) for our goods. Trump has ended that. Carney is busy negotiating REAL trade deals with Europe and Asia. The whole Alberta to pacific pipeline is so we avoid the US, and make more money on the international oil market (Canadian crude is discounted going into the US).

As for the tax rate, Ontario (both provincial and federal) is less than states like New York, California, Illinois, Michigan, etc. Sure, there are states that don't have corporate taxes, (Texas has a "franchise" tax for certain businesses, though I cannot remember exactly how that works). Canadian businesses also have more statutory holidays and provide more holiday time. They also don't have to have employer sponsored health care. Again, it is not an apples to apples comparison.

 

[Phil C. McNasty]

Read the report and the wiki article

So is your claim now that 70 US citizens were wrongly deported during Trump's first term, and were never let back into the US again??

Is that right??

 

[WyattEarp]

That's a lot of motivated reasoning, Wyatt.

I believe I acknowledged my bias.