Charas Hit....with intent?

Ironhead,

You did not get my point and you totally ignored you quotes that I added to my comment. I was not arguing on whether the hit is legal or not. I wasn't even arguing about whether it's part of the game or not. I was responding to your comment:

"I ask 'what about Pacioretty ?' Does he not have to be aware of where he is ?"

That comment would have been valid had he skated into the post. He was directed into the post hence it was Charas' responsibility to know where he is and not direct a players face to the post. A body check would have eliminated the play.

I do not think that the hit was malicious but, to say that Pacioretty should have been aware of where he was makes no sense. Even if he was aware, what could he have done? He was directed in by a guy that's 6'9 and 255lbs. Chara, on the other hand could have simply body checked him instead using a hand to face approach.
 
The mere fact that it is a penalty means that it is NOT accepted as part of the game. Being hit in the face by the puck blocking a shot, you could argue is part of the game. The league's very own rules dictate interference (the penalty called on the play) is not "part of the game," hence the penalty, so the infraction and the consequences that follow as a result are not part of the game and are therefore open to further punishment.


Bob, I have to disagree.

The fact that the rulebook addresses and deals with interference means that it is a part of the game (it is against the rules, but it is acknowledged as a possible occurence).
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tl-6oqN0i4

A view of Moore's fatal crash. Pacioretty is a very lucky man.
Immovable object vs irrestible force, guess which one lost?

Yes like the molson indy in T.O with death of a driver , have a tree to close to a fence and car is hit and bounces off a fence with a impact that kills him its too late to change after someone is killed.
 
Bob, I have to disagree.

The fact that the rulebook addresses and deals with interference means that it is a part of the game (it is against the rules, but it is acknowledged as a possible occurence).

It is not part of the game per say but it is things that happens while playing the game and is punished within the context of the game(except for extreme cases). That's why you have minors, double minors, majors, game misconducts, suspensions... etc. If you consider these things as part of the game, then a blinsided elbow to the head is also part of the game since that would result in a penalty.

Anyway, I'm just saying that saying that Pacioretty should have been aware of where he was is like saying Moore should have seen Bertuzzi jump him from behind.
 
If there was intent it should have been 10-20 games.
No intent should be 2-3 games.


The hit was late. It was interference. It caused injury and while the design configuration of the boards and glass played a pivotal role in the severity of the injury, the responsibility is still with the hitter.

So you're suggesting he get 4,5, 10 ... whatever number of games for an interference call because of the design of the rink? Really? So if a player trips another player... who then slides into the boards and breaks an arm, how many games should he get? Where does this stop?
 
It is not part of the game per say but it is things that happens while playing the game and is punished within the context of the game(except for extreme cases). That's why you have minors, double minors, majors, game misconducts, suspensions... etc. If you consider these things as part of the game, then a blinsided elbow to the head is also part of the game since that would result in a penalty.

Anyway, I'm just saying that saying that Pacioretty should have been aware of where he was is like saying Moore should have seen Bertuzzi jump him from behind.

chara's hit & bertuzzi's hit are miles apart. any NHL athlete knows he can get a hit in any given game day. If you're skating full speed, split second reaction is hard. you're putting yourself in danger but you know this. and btw...fighting is penalized yet we see this players slug it out and only stop them when they both hit the ground...why? ...part of the game.
 
The only way to get the players to comply with any rule change or even any current rule pertaining to hits to the head is to hit them in the wallet hard. That's what it took in the NFL. After all of the fines and suspensions that happened this last season announcers were already noticing how tackling strategies had changed and many players went low when they previously would've went high. 3 game suspensions and $60 000 isn't going to do it for these guys. They have to start looking at quarter to half million dollar fines to bring about change at a minimum. You can sure bet that if the players are hit this hard in the wallet they'll hear about it from their wives.
 
The only way to get the players to comply with any rule change or even any current rule pertaining to hits to the head is to hit them in the wallet hard. That's what it took in the NFL. After all of the fines and suspensions that happened this last season announcers were already noticing how tackling strategies had changed and many players went low when they previously would've went high. 3 game suspensions and $60 000 isn't going to do it for these guys. They have to start looking at quarter to half million dollar fines to bring about change at a minimum. You can sure bet that if the players are hit this hard in the wallet they'll hear about it from their wives.

Agreed! Another thing I would like to see is a suspended players salary is paid to the a fund to assist injured players and for the study and prevention of injuries. If the teams are still paying the salaries they will be less likely to condone the unneccessary roughness.
 
the way hockey is played right now has gone too deep to even take one step back. like someone said, this kind of plays have been done in the lower levels as well. It's time to make the environment safer for these athletes.
 
Ironhead,

You did not get my point and you totally ignored you quotes that I added to my comment. I was not arguing on whether the hit is legal or not. I wasn't even arguing about whether it's part of the game or not. I was responding to your comment:

"I ask 'what about Pacioretty ?' Does he not have to be aware of where he is ?"

That comment would have been valid had he skated into the post. He was directed into the post hence it was Charas' responsibility to know where he is and not direct a players face to the post. A body check would have eliminated the play.

I do not think that the hit was malicious but, to say that Pacioretty should have been aware of where he was makes no sense. Even if he was aware, what could he have done? He was directed in by a guy that's 6'9 and 255lbs. Chara, on the other hand could have simply body checked him instead using a hand to face approach.

I did get your point. I am saying you cannot compare two players who accept that there is some risk when they step onto the the ice, as opposed to two private citizens having a disagreement out on public streets.
You are kind of saying that 'yes women are to share blame when they get raped when they have skimpy clothing on'.



The mere fact that it is a penalty means that it is NOT accepted as part of the game. Being hit in the face by the puck blocking a shot, you could argue is part of the game. The league's very own rules dictate interference (the penalty called on the play) is not "part of the game," hence the penalty, so the infraction and the consequences that follow as a result are not part of the game and are therefore open to further punishment.

OK, every penalty must now be met with criminal action in a court of law.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx7oZhgBGe4

Pavel Kubina elbows someone to the head. NHL suspends him for 3 games and 60K and Chara got nothing for a more lethal cheap shot.

Says the dedicated fair minded Montreal fan. :rolleyes:
 
Great article by Eric Engels

Very strongly put! And I love the way Sedin cuts through the bullshit flying around this issue.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Eric-Engels/Bettman-Offends-All-Sponsors-Most-Notably-Molson/82/34380

3) Here's the closer from Dave Stubbs' morning column:

"As Max Pacioretty heals his broken body, he might want to consider this:

It's possible that his injury could finally stir the NHL into action on the stupidity that's overtaken hockey. This could, at long last, be the tipping point in a game that's crying out for a little balance."

I'd like to take the "possible" part out of the sentence, though I concur it's only responsible to phrase it as such.

The haunting image of Pacioretty motionless for several minutes, face-down and in a position where doctors and attendants would have no choice but to immobilize his neck, had almost as profound of an effect as him actually dying or being paralyzed.

We are eternally thankful that the worst did not occur, but that it entered everyone's mind that he could plausibly be dead in the moment-- this is the tipping point Stubbs refers to. It has stirred the people that won't relent until change is implemented, let alone discussed.

The power of that image is beyond words. It provokes the deepest emotional response, and in this case, emotions shouldn't be separated from the issue. Those emotions will fuel the movement for immediate and explicit change.

Geoff Molson's statement; his emotional and incredibly well-framed letter won't be ignored.

That this happened in Montreal--where the game is forever enriched by the passion of Canadiens fans--is more significant than it happening in any other NHL market other than Toronto. Because these fans won't let it go. The important hockey people of Montreal, with tremendous influence on the game, won't let it go.

I do believe this is the final straw that will set in motion the drastic re-evaluation of hockey's state, and that change is waiting on the other side of that long-winded discussion.

4) Stephen Brunt of the Globe and Mail has taken aim at Gary Bettman once again. It's so easy to do at this point, but honestly, who does it better than Brunt?

The man is open about despising Bettman, and yet he still offers a clear-cut, well-evidenced case for the commissioner's removal , without his opinion outweighing the facts.

You know what's funny?

I'm not sure anyone's mentioned this, but in light of Bettman's comments, how much angrier do you think Geoff Molson was by the end of yesterday?

This isn't just about his Canadiens anymore. We're less than a month removed from Molson being named the NHL's official beer...

Bettman's arrogance and his inability to control his own temper in response to Air Canada's call for progress on the issue was a shot across the bow of the league's corporate citizens.

The message he sent to virtually every other sponsor/potential sponsor would have had him canned before day's end if he was the CEO for any multinational corporation other than this failure of a league.

Instead, the Globe and Mail reports his contract was secretly extended for five years, in November.

5) I keep coming back to it. The NHL isn't going to change this endemic of unnecessary violence without the players spearheading the movement.

There are a couple of owners who care about the safety of the players. And let's not kid ourselves, Mario Lemieux and Geoff Molson are much more important than whoever the shmohawk is that runs the Phoenix Coyotes (Gary Bettman?).

But most the owners don't care enough. If they don't care enough to remove Bettman from the equation despite the abysmal state of his Sunbelt strategy; if they don't care enough to remove him after his league embarrasses itself time and time again with impotent regulation; if they don't care enough to remove him after he shoots from the hip without their approval--like he did yesterday in front of a U.S. Congressional contingency....well you get the point...

The players, who have no problem showing solidarity when it comes to fighting for what % of the revenue they own rights to, have to find a way to do so as it pertains to their own safety.

To all the players who have publicly stated they have no problem with Chara's hit, that they won't question his intention because proof is too hard to come by, that it's "just a hockey play", I view your statements as cowardly.

It is cowardly, and irresponsible at this point to not use this opportunity to change this game for the better. Next time, it could be you laying face-down on the ice while your family in attendance has your life flash before their eyes. But don't worry, you won't remember the incident...

6) “I'll tell you this: if you say that you don't know where things are around the ice, I think you're not telling the truth,” Henrik Sedin said. “You play the game for 20 years, you know it's there.

“I don't think players know where the limit is. That's the bottom line.”

“What are you doing to do the next time Trevor Gillies comes down and runs a guy into the thing? You can't give him anything. And you tell the guys [Chara] has no history, so the next time he does it he still has no history because he didn't get suspended. I don't see the reasoning behind it. Give him at least something to show that's not acceptable.”

read the article.


Boy am I happy Henrik Sedin said it.

Doesn't matter if I say it.

I was reluctant to voice my pure hockey opinion on this incident because I couldn't prove it. I didn't want to stir a controversy by alleging I believe to the core that Chara knew exactly what he was doing, that he knew it was Pacioretty, that he could've rubbed him out well before they got to the stanchion, and that he followed through on the hit to send a message (not with the intent to break Pacioretty's neck).


I'd have been met with "you're biased", and though I'd staunchly retort that I'd feel the same way if it were Pouliot or Cammalleri on Krejci, you likely wouldn't believe me.

Instead I presented why I thought the results of an illegal play were devastating enough for Chara to receive some kind of punishment for them.

Sedin agrees: "It's gotten to the point, you have to suspend guys if you hit the head. You have to do it even if guys say they didn't mean to do it or it's an accident. You have to start somewhere."

So thanks for doing that Henrik. Thanks for having the balls too many other players don't have. Will never agree with another person who thinks you're a soft player...
 
What? It is a stretch of astronomic proportions to suggest that was the point I was making. I made zero mention of criminal action resulting this entire incident. I don't believe it is warranted. I believe it to be an accident and that all the still shots and slow motion replays are bullshit, as is the tired Don Cherry-esque claim that this was, "ho-hum, just part of the game." It was not. It was a penalty, and as such Chara's violation of the rule led to severe consequences, and as such, cannot go unpunished.

Alright, my mistake. I have accidentally lumped you in with the 'let's go too far' crowd.







What? It is a stretch of astronomic proportions to suggest that was the point I was making. I made zero mention of criminal action resulting this entire incident. I don't believe it is warranted. I believe it to be an accident and that all the still shots and slow motion replays are bullshit, as is the tired Don Cherry-esque claim that this was, "ho-hum, just part of the game." It was not. It was a penalty, and as such Chara's violation of the rule led to severe consequences, and as such, cannot go unpunished.

I agree. However we differ from here, but I certainly respect your opinion, let me make that clear.







What? It is a stretch of astronomic proportions to suggest that was the point I was making. I made zero mention of criminal action resulting this entire incident. I don't believe it is warranted. I believe it to be an accident and that all the still shots and slow motion replays are bullshit, as is the tired Don Cherry-esque claim that this was, "ho-hum, just part of the game." It was not. It was a penalty, and as such Chara's violation of the rule led to severe consequences, and as such, cannot go unpunished.

So what do you think is appropriate punishment ?

I think we are close in the way we see the incident.
I see it as an accepted part of the game, the chance that one may get hurt playing a very tough sport.
I do not even see the play as a penalty, not even two minutes.
I wish Pacioretty all the best. It would be great if he could come back this season. I did not/do not want to see a player get hurt.
I see the incident as an unfortunate accident. Physical contact is apart of the game.
I certainly do not see it as intentional.
 
Another aspect to this hit that's different than say McSorley's/Bertuzzi's/Lemieux's is that nowhere on the iceare those hits safe or legal. I'd say on 90% of the ice surface Chara's hit is just a routine interference penalty. I honestly did not see why people were making such a huge deal originally. Just chalked it up to a part of the game where a hit happens at a really bad location and the end result is far worse than any of the participants could have imagined or planned.

You have to wonder how the league would've reacted had MATT Cooke been the one to lay the hit.

Thinking back on some of the uglier incidents in recent NHL history I'd say Domi's elbow of Neidermayer was much worse than this.
 
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