Canadian Air Carriers Slam Into Patriot Act

[Mcluhan]

Just caught then end of a NEWS clip on CBC, missed part of it but sounds like passengers are going to be forced thru US customs on domestic flights IF the carrier passes through US air space.

This will affect a couple of thousand Canadian Flights a week. The alternative is the more costly northern route in trans-canada flights.

I guess we better take a second look at that missle program...

 

[Don]

Makes sense to me

The US has tightened up security and feels additional checks are needed for planes entering their airspace. Inconvience but understandable.

 

[Mcluhan]

The US has tightened up security and feels additional checks are needed for planes entering their airspace. Inconvience but understandable.

Reminds me of putting the Scotch away while flying thru Saudi airspace on Gulf Air. Also inconvenient and about equally as understandable.

Time to seek alternate softwood lumber markets in Europe, and manufacture our own electric kettles (again).

lo an behold, it was a conservative MP on the same newscast stomping his foot over the issue. The CBC program director probably had a good snicker over that.

 

[Mack Bolan]

I guess the "next" step would be for all Canadian travelling between Canadian cities (non stop) , will be that the flight will have to land at a US airport and go throught US Customs. Then once everyone has been processed they will get back on the plane and continue on it way.

Or why not just pledge "Oath of loyalty" to the US King and country!

We don't tell the yanks that every US carrier crossoing over Canada on the polar routes have to supply the same information.

This is just a scam on the part of the US goverment and they are using 9/11 as the reason. They just want to control Canada by any means and this is according to US goverment studies written during the "cold" war.

Have any of you been in a store where an American will ask for change in US funds; they don't think they are in an other country; they don't do this in Europe.

Maybe would should become the largest state in the Union and leave Quebec on it's own?

Just wanted to rant!

Mack

 

[onthebottom]

I guess the "next" step would be for all Canadian travelling between Canadian cities (non stop) , will be that the flight will have to land at a US airport and go throught US Customs. Then once everyone has been processed they will get back on the plane and continue on it way.

Or why not just pledge "Oath of loyalty" to the US King and country!

We don't tell the yanks that every US carrier crossoing over Canada on the polar routes have to supply the same information.

This is just a scam on the part of the US goverment and they are using 9/11 as the reason. They just want to control Canada by any means and this is according to US goverment studies written during the "cold" war.

Have any of you been in a store where an American will ask for change in US funds; they don't think they are in an other country; they don't do this in Europe.

Maybe would should become the largest state in the Union and leave Quebec on it's own?

Just wanted to rant!

Mack

While you'd be a large state (without Quebec) you wouldn't be the largest - at least from a population or economic perspective - California would keep that status (35m people, 7th largest world economy). Come on down and join the party.

OTB

OTB

 

[Mcluhan]

Have any of you been in a store where an American will ask for change in US funds; they don't think they are in an other country; they don't do this in Europe.

Mack

While the yank attitude (to generalize of course) tends to be somewhat irritating in many places, I don't blame the Yanks for this. US bucks are the only real money in most countries outside of the EU and UK and I would behave the very same way if it was me. Every time money changes hands it shrinks. Also there is the perception that it’s worth more. It’s also remarkable how the basic math of simple currency exchange befuddles the majority of people. Just doing the simple math freezes their brain and this on both sides of the border. The retailers use it to great advantage.

 

[red]

The US has tightened up security and feels additional checks are needed for planes entering their airspace. Inconvience but understandable.

not really understandable at all. Will US flights to india or germany now have to clear customs in all the countries they pass over?

 

[Keebler Elf]

That's okay, all the Americans are really doing is hurting their own bottom line. Passengers will take alternative flights, vacationers will go elsewhere for their holidays, Canadians will reduce border-shopping, etc., etc.

Oh yeah, that's already happening!

I say we just put the USA on "ignore" until they get rid of Bush and bring in someone reasonable. I know I have...

 

[Truncador]

The story

U.S. is seeking passenger lists for Canadian domestic flights
Federal government balks at security demand. For speed and cost-effectiveness, many routes between cities in this country cross into U.S. airspace

ELIZABETH THOMPSON
The Gazette


Thursday, June 02, 2005


Canada is fighting a U.S. move to require airlines to provide passenger lists for domestic flights between Canadian cities, Transport Minister Jean Lapierre said yesterday.

"It's a very hot issue right now and we're right now in the middle of discussions with them," Lapierre told reporters, adding he is "very worried" about the U.S. plan.

"We don't think it is a good idea that Canadians travelling from one city to another would have to be checked under the American no-fly list."

The problem centres on the fact many Canadian airlines, seeking the most direct and cost-effective routes between Canadian cities, cross over U.S. territory for part of the flight.

"If you leave Montreal and you go to Halifax, you'll go over American airspace," Lapierre explained. "If you go from Montreal to Toronto you have a great chance of going over American airspace. If you go from Toronto to Calgary you will. That's because we're so close by."

Sometimes it may not even be deliberate, he added. "It happens that our major cities are right on the border. And so if the winds push you this way, well you will be over American airspace."

In fact, Lapierre estimates 2,300 flights a week between Canadian cities cross American airspace; another 700 or so do so en route to international destinations outside the U.S.

Now, following a recent incident, in which a KLM flight from Amsterdam to Mexico was turned back because two passengers were on the U.S. no-fly list, the Americans have announced they want to change the rules, Lapierre said.

Ottawa, however, is arguing Canada can handle any security concerns posed by domestic flights, and that what the U.S is asking "would have a major impact on Canadian sovereignty."

"When we have Canadians travelling from one city to another in Canada, I think there is no risk involved and I don't think we should have to submit to the American list," Lapierre said.

"We have to say that they have the legal authority because it is their own airspace," he later added. "But I think frankly that over the years we have been partners in the airspace and I think we should continue that way."

Lapierre said he and Public Safety Minister Anne McLellan plan to talk with their U.S. counterparts in a bid to get the idea dropped. However, he said the U.S. hasn't even given the Canadian government a copy of its plan yet.

"They have informed us that before they do anything that they will give us the draft of their proposed regulation so we will see the effect. Right now they don't have the draft form, either."

Asked what Canada will do if the U.S. insists on the new measure, Lapierre said the government will fight back.

"Well, we will insist, too."

If all else fails, Canadian carriers may have to change the routes they use, he said. "It could be that we would have to take a northern route, which would be much more expensive for the carriers."

New Democratic leader Jack Layton echoed Lapierre's concerns.

"The idea that flights between Canadian destinations should now have to be subjected to American security procedures is extraordinary. We don't see it as acceptable and we're asking questions about the government's policy on it."

© The Gazette (Montreal) 2005

Sounds like another case of the Liberals seeing threats to Canadian sovereignty where none exist in a case where they can be sure that US decision-makers will drop the plan if they scream loud enough. Then when they do get their way, they have yet another trivial "victory" to point to in order to prove to the public what a bunch of Fearless Champions of Canadian Independence they are- unlike their opponents, whose loyalty is suspect- and that they alone, corrupt as they are, can defend the National Interest against American incursions.

Typical Fiberal M.O. Nothing to see here, folks.

 

[red]

Sounds like another case of the Liberals seeing threats to Canadian sovereignty where none exist in a case where they can be sure that US decision-makers will drop the plan if they scream loud enough. Then when they do get their way, they have yet another trivial "victory" to point to in order to prove to the public what a bunch of Fearless Champions of Canadian Independence they are- unlike their opponents, whose loyalty is suspect- and that they alone, corrupt as they are, can defend the National Interest against American incursions.

Typical Fiberal M.O. Nothing to see here, folks.

at least you are not paranoid

 

[Mcluhan]

Breakfast of The Right

Sounds like another case of the Liberals seeing threats to Canadian sovereignty where none exist in a case where they can be sure that US decision-makers will drop the plan if they scream loud enough. Then when they do get their way, they have yet another thing to point to in order to prove to the public what a bunch of Fearless Champions of Canadian Independence they are- unlike their opponents, whose loyalty is suspect- and that they alone, corrupt as they are, can defend the National Interest against American incursions.

Typical Fiberal M.O. Nothing to see here, folks.

Trunc, it's interesting that you cast a liberal/conservative slant on almost everything. What do you eat for breakfast? And what is the left opposing food, just curious.

Thanks for pointing out the Real issue here (passenger lists), I was under the mistaken impression Canucks might have to go thru US customs. Anyway, it's a transgression on our Sovereignty. It's basic political harassment and leveraging on the behalf of our Southern neighbour. BUT IT IS their airspace AND if they want to be pig-headed about it, not much we can do directly.

It is however, OUR water, OUR timber, OUR energy and our land. I would think there is a great basis for cooperation between the two of us, and this move is counter to that notion. Inch-by-inch they are headed toward much more Government control in their lives. I for one am HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY opposed to letting the US Government into our day-to-day lives on this regulatory basis. It sets a HUGELY dangerous precedent.

 

[Guy Lafleuer]

Trunc, it's interesting that you cast a liberal/conservative slant on almost everything. What do you eat for breakfast? And what is the left opposing food, just curious.

Thanks for pointing out the Real issue here (passenger lists), I was under the mistaken impression Canucks might have to go thru US customs. Anyway, it's a transgression on our Sovereignty. It's basic political harassment and leveraging on the behalf of our Southern neighbour. BUT IT IS their airspace AND if they want to be pig-headed about it, not much we can do directly.

It is however, OUR water, OUR timber, OUR energy and our land. I would think there is a great basis for cooperation between the two of us, and this move is counter to that notion. Inch-by-inch they are headed toward much more Government control in their lives. I for one am HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY opposed to letting the US Government into our day-to-day lives on this regulatory basis. It sets a HUGELY dangerous precedent.

I have to agree with McLuhan. It does set a very bad precendent. That and that fact, at least for me, that travelling to the US these day's is nothing short of torture. It's no wonder the airline industry is suffering these day's. You have to get to the airport two hours ahead of time, stand around with your luggage, get your luggage checked with a fine tooth comb, take your shoes off, open up your pants etc... What's next ? An anal probe ??? "Ya officer, I was going to sneak my nail clippers in up my ass, shit it out, and then attack the pilot !!!

Guy

 

[Truncador]

And what is the left opposing food, just curious.

A rotten Communist potato from a sack with a Government of Canada logo on it- such as we'd all eat, when they were around, if governments here were to resort to trade sanctions over regulatory trivia like this.

It's basic political harassment and leveraging on the behalf of our Southern neighbour. BUT IT IS their airspace AND if they want to be pig-headed about it, not much we can do directly.

The fear is of the bad guys sneaking into American airspace through the back door, and it is a valid concern. As for sovereignty concerns, it would be a different story if they were to insist that nobody on the US no-fly list should be allowed on any Canadian flight or something like that. But the proposal doesn't even come close. Asking to see a list of who's going to be passing through American territory may legitimately be perceived as a sort of insult, a suggestion that we aren't doing our job or can't be trusted to at our end of the security partnership. Fair enough. But the request is hardly an incursion on Canadian sovereignty; indeed, the Americans would have a strong case that refusal to provide the lists would comprise an incursion on their sovereignty (keeping tabs on who's in the national territory at any given time is a fundamental to sovereignty).

As for politics, I can't help but notice that the Liberals and their intellectuals tend to be rabid supporters of the ICC, global arms control, and just about every UN one-world program ever conceived. They also adamantly believe in something called "international law", which is supposed to be binding on all States. But when it comes to America, they suddenly switch their tune and notice the importance of sovereignty. Hmm.

 

[red]

A rotten Communist potato from a sack with a Government of Canada logo on it- such as we'd all eat, when they were around, if governments here were to resort to trade sanctions over regulatory trivia like this.



The fear is of the bad guys sneaking into American airspace through the back door, and it is a valid concern. As for sovereignty concerns, it would be a different story if they were to insist that nobody on the US no-fly list should be allowed on any Canadian flight or something like that. But the proposal doesn't even come close. Asking to see a list of who's going to be passing through American territory may legitimately be perceived as a sort of insult, a suggestion that we aren't doing our job or can't be trusted to at our end of the security partnership. Fair enough. But the request is hardly an incursion on Canadian sovereignty; indeed, the Americans would have a strong case that refusal to provide the lists would comprise an incursion on their sovereignty (keeping tabs on who's in the national territory at any given time is a fundamental to sovereignty).

As for politics, I can't help but notice that the Liberals and their intellectuals tend to be rabid supporters of the ICC, global arms control, and just about every UN one-world program ever conceived. They also adamantly believe in something called "international law", which is supposed to be binding on all States. But when it comes to America, they suddenly switch their tune and notice the importance of sovereignty. Hmm.

how does it add to their security? if someone was to hijack a flight with the intent of attacking the US, they could hijack a flight from toronto to Ottawa which does not involve US airspace and have the plane turnaround an fly south.

 

[langeweile]

It's no wonder the airline industry is suffering these day's. You have to get to the airport two hours ahead of time, stand around with your luggage, get your luggage checked with a fine tooth comb, take your shoes off, open up your pants etc...

Guy

That is not the reason why airlines are in trouble.
High wages, overcapacity, fuel cost and poor managment is.
Paying a flight attendant $60 000 to $80 000 for serving drinks, and paying a pilot on the top tier $250 000 is part of the problem.

Goverments artificially supporting the industry breeds inefficencies and keeps carriers in business that under normal circumstances would be gone already.
To top it off large financing insitutions like GE, don't want to loose their "flying mortgages".

if small entrepreneurs would run their business, like some airlines do, most of them would be out of business, and nobody would give a shit...

 

[Mcluhan]

A rotten Communist potato from a sack with a Government of Canada logo on it- such as we'd all eat, when they were around, if governments here were to resort to trade sanctions over regulatory trivia like this.

Mind untangling this paragraph into plain English so that I may understand it?


The fear is of the bad guys sneaking into American airspace through the back door, and it is a valid concern.


Wasn't it you who just the other day were gushing all over that loud mouth Michael Corin for his emotional outburst on the over-use of the word 'frightening'. Yes, I think it was you melting over him. Laughable contradiction here, your shoe laces are tied together.

Yes I understand clearly their concern, and frankly Scarlet, I don't give a damn. My sovereign rights are more important than their concerns. And if yours aren't then please do us a favour immigrate south where your heart seems to already belong.

As for sovereignty concerns, it would be a different story if they were to insist that nobody on the US no-fly list should be allowed on any Canadian flight or something like that. But the proposal doesn't even come close.


Yes, it's like being a little bit pregnant.

Asking to see a list of who's going to be passing through American territory may legitimately be perceived as a sort of insult, a suggestion that we aren't doing our job or can't be trusted to at our end of the security partnership. Fair enough. But the request is hardly an incursion on Canadian sovereignty; indeed,


It certainly is. Try it in the reverse and see how much co-operation you receive…lol.. Reading this, I am further convinced you dwell in an ivory tower (with a blue hue to it) surrounded by clouds.

the Americans would have a strong case that refusal to provide the lists would comprise an incursion on their sovereignty (keeping tabs on who's in the national territory at any given time is a fundamental to sovereignty).


Yes, because it's THEIR air space. They can have a strong feeling about whatever it is to do with their property…just as I have a strong feeling about my National rights and property (information). This is a case where some common sense should prevail as well as respect for a neighbours rights. (And that respect should run both ways, here it clearly does not).

As for politics, I can't help but notice that the Liberals and their intellectuals tend to be rabid supporters of the ICC, global arms control, and just about every UN one-world program ever conceived. They also adamantly believe in something called "international law", which is supposed to be binding on all States. But when it comes to America, they suddenly switch their tune and notice the importance of sovereignty. Hmm.


International Law is based on International Shipping Law, and to date it's the strongest body of Laws in common to the Planet. What's your point? I am quite sure the US suggestion will run contrary to this body of law. Someone with 'real' knowledge no doubt speak out on it shortly.

 

[onthebottom]

While I have a hard time understanding the emotion generated by providing a passenger list of those flying through US airspace, why don't you just request the same from the US on Canadian airspace. That would most international flights to Europe and many to Asia I'd think.

Flying is more of a pain in the ass these days - although 2 hours is a stretch. I fly EVERY week and I NEVER arrive more than 50 minutes before a flight - although I go thru the Platinum security line that only takes about 5 minutes

OTB

 

[Mcluhan]

While I have a hard time understanding the emotion generated by providing a passenger list of those flying through US airspace, why don't you just request the same from the US on Canadian airspace. That would most international flights to Europe and many to Asia I'd think.

Flying is more of a pain in the ass these days - although 2 hours is a stretch. I fly EVERY week and I NEVER arrive more than 50 minutes before a flight - although I go thru the Platinum security line that only takes about 5 minutes

OTB

uh...how about because the travellers are travelling domestically, and there is no need to give a foreign Government this type of information, which to an sensible person is an invasion of privacy. And then once that foreign government has established the invasion of privacy mechanism (ESPECIALLY THIS foreign government) they will leverage it for more. Other than that, it's no big deal..lol

P.S. I also object to Israeli intellegence having clear unfettered access to our domectic flights info... another good reason not to comply...

 

[onthebottom]

uh...how about because the travellers are travelling domestically, and there is no need to give a foreign Government this type of information, which to an sensible person is an invasion of privacy. And then once that foreign government has established the invasion of privacy mechanism (ESPECIALLY THIS foreign government) they will leverage it for more. Other than that, it's no big deal..lol

P.S. I also object to Israeli intellegence having clear unfettered access to our domectic flights info... another good reason not to comply...

Invasion of privacy - Air Canada already has your name, and photo ID and full itinerary - what are you talking about. As for Domestic flight, I would assume this only applies if you're entering US airspace.

Israeli intelligence, do you know something I don't or are you just paranoid?

OTB

 

[Guy Lafleuer]

While I have a hard time understanding the emotion generated by providing a passenger list of those flying through US airspace, why don't you just request the same from the US on Canadian airspace. That would most international flights to Europe and many to Asia I'd think.

Flying is more of a pain in the ass these days - although 2 hours is a stretch. I fly EVERY week and I NEVER arrive more than 50 minutes before a flight - although I go thru the Platinum security line that only takes about 5 minutes

OTB

OTB:

Where are you flying to every week ? Is it from Canada to the US ? That's where I experience the worst delays. But I hate flying at the best of times. I just find it objectionable to have to have my pants pulled open everytime I cross the border.

Apparently this is going to affect over 250,000 flights a year. That should help the airline industry. And for what ?
A beginner pilot flying his plane goes off course out of Washington a few weeks ago and the US Airforce was on him like a bad smell because he flew too close to the White House. How the hell are you going to get a commercial flight into US airspace that is going to cause any damage when the airforce would shoot it out of the sky in a New York minute ?

Guy