Canadian Air Carriers Slam Into Patriot Act

[Mcluhan]

What is you fail to understand?

Invasion of privacy - Air Canada already has your name, and photo ID and full itinerary - what are you talking about. As for Domestic flight, I would assume this only applies if you're entering US airspace.

Israeli intelligence, do you know something I don't or are you just paranoid?

OTB

What is about the plain face of this issue that you don't get? We are discussing domestic flights here, not international. The US Government has no business being fed passenger manifest lists on our domestic flights, PERIOD. You are wrong to trivialise this issue. More important that the face of the issue, it opens the door for more US Government prying into our Canadian domestic affairs.

The Israelis? Oh, you probably haven't noticed. They've taken over your Government. I'd rather not encourage their participation in ours.

 

[langeweile]

Airport security in the USA before 9/11 was a joke. It has gotten better now, but in no way compare with anything in Europe, Isarael and other parts of the world.
IMHO airport security is not tight enough here.

 

[Mcluhan]

Airport security in the USA before 9/11 was a joke. It has gotten better now, but in no way compare with anything in Europe, Isarael and other parts of the world.
IMHO airport security is not tight enough here.

That is also true. But it has nothing whatsoever to do with this issue.

 

[onthebottom]

OTB:

Where are you flying to every week ? Is it from Canada to the US ? That's where I experience the worst delays. But I hate flying at the best of times. I just find it objectionable to have to have my pants pulled open everytime I cross the border.

I don't fly to Canada as often as I'd like, and I really miss the automated US Pass system. Most of my flights are domestic (New York, Charlotte, Chicago, SF.....) and thus just domestic security. Been a while since anyone has touched my pants at the airport. I have noticed that travelers have upgrades sox since the shoe requirement though.

Apparently this is going to affect over 250,000 flights a year. That should help the airline industry. And for what ?
A beginner pilot flying his plane goes off course out of Washington a few weeks ago and the US Airforce was on him like a bad smell because he flew too close to the White House. How the hell are you going to get a commercial flight into US airspace that is going to cause any damage when the airforce would shoot it out of the sky in a New York minute ?

Guy

I don't know but I'm guessing that the US is just trying to be consistant, every flight going throuh our airspace has to follow the same rules. Also affects Mexican flights to Europe for example.

OTB

 

[onthebottom]

What is about the plain face of this issue that you don't get? We are discussing domestic flights here, not international. The US Government has no business being fed passenger manifest lists on our domestic flights, PERIOD. You are wrong to trivialise this issue. More important that the face of the issue, it opens the door for more US Government prying into our Canadian domestic affairs.

Our airspace our rules, don't like it fly around. The rest is just the Canadian version of Napeleon complex.

The Israelis? Oh, you probably haven't noticed. They've taken over your Government. I'd rather not encourage their participation in ours.

Ah, so you're one of those, how very European of you.

OTB

 

[Mcluhan]

I don't fly to Canada as often as I'd like, and I really miss the automated US Pass system. Most of my flights are domestic (New York, Charlotte, Chicago, SF.....) and thus just domestic security. Been a while since anyone has touched my pants at the airport. I have noticed that travelers have upgrades sox since the shoe requirement though.



I don't know but I'm guessing that the US is just trying to be consistant, every flight going throuh our airspace has to follow the same rules. Also affects Mexican flights to Europe for example.

OTB

Yes, valid point. And Mexico will respond according to how they see fit. I as one Canadian voice, object to the US government having access to this type of information and especially to the precedent in information-access it sets between our two counties. And I can also fully understand how as an American, it wouldn't concern you one whit.

 

[Mcluhan]

Our airspace our rules, don't like it fly around. The rest is just the Canadian version of Napeleon complex.

OTB

As I have said from the beginning, I understand your country is within it's rights as property owner. I also pointed out that there is room for some common sense, cooperation and respect of privacy in this issue. You of course adopted the knee-jerk point of view... "It's the Golden rule. We own the gold, therefore we make the rules. Like it or lump it." How typically American of you...

The same spirit of dominance and anti-co-operation would find Canada saying, it's our water...like it or lump it.. (etc).

 

[Truncador]

A rotten Communist potato from a sack with a Government of Canada logo on it- such as we'd all eat, when they were around, if governments here were to resort to trade sanctions over regulatory trivia like this.

Mind untangling this paragraph into plain English so that I may understand it?

If Canada were to respond to things like this with trade sanctions, as several of your remarks suggest, it would hurt us more than it would hurt them. It would suck to be poor.

Wasn't it you who just the other day were gushing all over that loud mouth Michael Corin for his emotional outburst on the over-use of the word 'frightening'.

9-11 happened less than four years ago. It's not as though use of a hijacked plane as a weapon of mass destruction is some sort of paranoid tin-foil-het theory. A terrorist at the helm of a big passenger airplane can and will do a lot more damage than Stephen Harper ever could or would.

please do us a favour immigrate south where your heart seems to already belong.

Yes, because it's THEIR air space. They can have a strong feeling about whatever it is to do with their property…just as I have a strong feeling about my National rights and property (information). This is a case where some common sense should prevail as well as respect for a neighbours rights. (And that respect should run both ways, here it clearly does not).

Wouldn't it be reasonable for both sides to compromise, seeing as how it's a bi-national issue ? It's not as though the Americans are proposing that we be banned from taking shortcuts through their turf. It's reasonable for them to ask something in return, no ?

International Law is based on International Shipping Law, and to date it's the strongest body of Laws in common to the Planet. What's your point? I am quite sure the US suggestion will run contrary to this body of law. Someone with 'real' knowledge no doubt speak out on it shortly.

I was speaking to the belief, widesparead in Canada, that a sovereign nation has to get permission from the UN or whatever before starting a war.

 

[red]

i am amazed at how many right wingers are so happy to give their government information on their banking or travel arrangements but don't want the government to know how many guns they own

 

[Truncador]

i am amazed at how many right wingers are so happy to give their government information on their banking or travel arrangements but don't want the government to know how many guns they own

They're probably not afraid of the government freezing their assets or confiscating their plane tickets

 

[langeweile]

Sorry I miss read the whole post...oops.

I think it is necessary for the USA, and Canada for that matter, to know who is flying through it's airspace. I don't think this is unreasonable, and should be demanded by Canada as well.
IMO ,the USA is uncomfortable with Canadian immigration policies. there is a feeling amongst Americans, that just about anybody can come into Canada. BTW this is sentiment shared by a lot of Canadians I know.

If there is to be an open border again between the two countries, somehow there has to be a common policy in regards to immigration. Maybe not soo much on who get's to come in, maybe more so on how people get to come in here.
I remember a report on Canadian television about three years ago, were people showed up in the Montreal airport without any papers, and were granted a temporary stay??? Even for Canada this can't be in their best interest.

I am sad to see that these two countries, that have such a closely shared history, seemed to be drifting apart, rather than start to cooperate.

 

[langeweile]

i am amazed at how many right wingers are so happy to give their government information on their banking or travel arrangements but don't want the government to know how many guns they own

RED,
With all due respect. Your so called privacy is not as private as you think.The goverment knows more about you than you think.
All they need is your SS#, drivers licence # or in some cases your phone number.
One of the striking differences between the USA and Canada is the use of the SS#.
It is almost used for everything in the USA, but very little used in Canada. Here they are not even allowed to ask for it.

 

[red]

RED,
With all due respect. Your so called privacy is not as private as you think.The goverment knows more about you than you think.
All they need is your SS#, drivers licence # or in some cases your phone number.
One of the striking differences between the USA and Canada is the use of the SS#.
It is almost used for everything in the USA, but very little used in Canada. Here they are not even allowed to ask for it.

I guess thats more of those american freedoms I hear about.

 

[red]

They're probably not afraid of the government freezing their assets or confiscating their plane tickets

don't count on it.

 

[red]

I was speaking to the belief, widesparead in Canada, that a sovereign nation has to get permission from the UN or whatever before starting a war.

Is the US a signatory to the UN Charter? Does the Charter say they need UN permission except in the case of self defence?

 

[langeweile]

Is the US a signatory to the UN Charter? Does the Charter say they need UN permission except in the case of self defence?

It was self defense

 

[red]

It was self defense

Iraq invaded the US? wow, I know I don't always read all of the paper, but I would have thought that news would have made the front page.

BTW- i have not heard this as the reason for invading iraq before. I thought the latest was to overthrow a tyrant.

 

[someone]

i am amazed at how many right wingers are so happy to give their government information on their banking or travel arrangements but don't want the government to know how many guns they own

Unfortunately I have gotten so used to such inconsistencies that I am actually pleasantly surprised when I meet someone who is consistent. I agree that may of the “right wingers” (in the current American political climate I am less and less sure that terms like right and left have much meaning) on this board are inconsistent. However, it seems to me that fewer and fewer people of any political persuasion are consistent today. Recently, I was commenting to someone that I was taken off guard when a Chinese grad student blurted out in class that he hated Japanese people. The person I mention this to was very left wing and thought the student should be referred to consolers. Yet this same person has told me openly of his dislike of Americans and western Canadians. I agree with you regarding “right wingers” but I would say that they do not have the monopoly on this type of inconsistency.

 

[red]

I agree with you regarding “right wingers” but I would say that they do not have the monopoly on this type of inconsistency.

absolutely right

 

[langeweile]

Iraq invaded the US? wow, I know I don't always read all of the paper, but I would have thought that news would have made the front page.

BTW- i have not heard this as the reason for invading iraq before. I thought the latest was to overthrow a tyrant.

Amongst other things he was supporting terrorists, that's not news. So indirect it could be presented as self defense.
Any good laywer could present that............"You don't have to pay us, until we get money for you"...