lol OTB..you are insufferable. But you have me at a slight disadvantage because I like to do deals quickly and cleanly, and unfortunately, the USA is still the only place where deals can be done in 2 meetings. Here is a perfect example.onthebottom said:See, reasonable people can come to sensible agreements (usually mine) if they stop calling each other names and listen.
OTB
Canadian Air Carriers Slam Into Patriot Act
- Thread starter Mcluhan
- Start date
Yes. But labour costs are a small fraction of operating costs. Much more influential are such things as fuel prices and undercutting the competition.onthebottom said:
Blaming unions for the state of the airline industry is the typical excuse made by incompetent managers and corporate execs. Such ignorance...
As for Air Canada having 70% market share, that statement (even if it's true) says nothing about the quality of that share. That 70% may include all the least profitable routes, thereby reducing profits. That's great 'an all that another airline might be profitable with only 10% market share, but if that 10% only includes the most profitable routes then it's to be expected.
I've been called worse!Mcluhan said:
The US is all about results, there is no grin f*cking, no saving face no bullsh*t, give me your best price and terms and lets do the deal, otherwise I'm busy and don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. How do you think we got so rich. I worked in NY for 6 years and just loved it, smart fast talking people who had tons of money and knew what they wanted - if you are smart and tough you can make a fortune.Mcluhan said:
Now, lets all sing along with Frankie......
OTB
EXACTLY! That's why I'm so glad Americans are down there and we Canadians are up here. Be the richest mofos on the planet. Fine by me. You're also the biggest assholes. And no amount of money can change that.onthebottom said:
I think you'd find that after capital costs of planes that labor is right up there in the cost structure. The other hidden cost of unions is work rule inflexibility.Keebler Elf said:
Unions, by definition, extort above market rates for labor by controlling the supply - a cartel if you will.Keebler Elf said:Blaming unions for the state of the airline industry is the typical excuse made by incompetent managers and corporate execs. Such ignorance...
My point is, that Air Canada has too much market share. If they stopped serving those small markets with government subsides someone might start a small airline that made money and served the market. Nature (and markets) abhor a vacuum, but if Air Canada is addicted to the government tit then you'll never know if someone could make a profitable business out of those routs.Keebler Elf said:
But hey, I don't pay Canadian taxes nor do I fly Air Canada so if it makes you feel better it's OK with me.
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LOL Ah, the smug ice Napoleon rears his ugly head.Keebler Elf said:EXACTLY! That's why I'm so glad Americans are down there and we Canadians are up here. Be the richest mofos on the planet. Fine by me. You're also the biggest assholes. And no amount of money can change that.
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Rough, hahcyrus said:Sorry OTB, my I apologize for Keebler for being so rough on you!
Just another content poor socialist - no skin off my nose, just one more guy I'll never have to compete against.
OTB
I don't have an issue with the US Government asking to see passenger lists for those flights that cross over US Territory, if they force US Air Carriers to do the same when they fly of Canadian Territory. An EVERY US AIR CARRIER flies over Canada when going to Europe, Alaska and is some instances Asia. When ever possible airlines will fly on a "great circle", you go to Europe following a polar route because you are over land in case of an emergency. Same when going to Asia, you try to stay close to land so if you have to ditch you do it close to Naval Search and Rescue. How would the US Government and the MEDIA react to Canada telling a flight to turn around we don't like someone on one of your flights. Refuse and be forced to land.
As for Canada letting market forces govern how airlines work, it will never happen, Canada does not have the population density to enable this model to work effectively. Canada was formed in the sprit of cooperation and shared responsibility. Unlike the US where “Individualism” still rains supreme. Case in point, our Health Care system tries to look after everyone by sharing the burden. How many times has such a system been suggested for the US only for it to be defeated because of the overwhelming believes that “that’s his problem, I got my own”. American’s as individuals are generous to a fault, add politicians to the mix and its “tough luck Charlie”.
And just one more time, the terrorist who flew the jets on 9/11 were all in the United States on approved VISAS. Nobody came from Canada. Will they use this method in the future, who knows? But if I were a betting man, I’d be looking at container traffic.
Oh, by the way, remember that we have a little more than a year to go before anyone visiting the US will require a Passport, including American’s returning from those day trips and vacations that they used to take to both Canada and Mexico. That traffic is going to dry up. Soon the only Canadians visiting the Excited States of America, will be on those flights that over fly US territory between 2 Canadian cities.
As for Canada letting market forces govern how airlines work, it will never happen, Canada does not have the population density to enable this model to work effectively. Canada was formed in the sprit of cooperation and shared responsibility. Unlike the US where “Individualism” still rains supreme. Case in point, our Health Care system tries to look after everyone by sharing the burden. How many times has such a system been suggested for the US only for it to be defeated because of the overwhelming believes that “that’s his problem, I got my own”. American’s as individuals are generous to a fault, add politicians to the mix and its “tough luck Charlie”.
And just one more time, the terrorist who flew the jets on 9/11 were all in the United States on approved VISAS. Nobody came from Canada. Will they use this method in the future, who knows? But if I were a betting man, I’d be looking at container traffic.
Oh, by the way, remember that we have a little more than a year to go before anyone visiting the US will require a Passport, including American’s returning from those day trips and vacations that they used to take to both Canada and Mexico. That traffic is going to dry up. Soon the only Canadians visiting the Excited States of America, will be on those flights that over fly US territory between 2 Canadian cities.
I think jealousy is the correct word.onthebottom said:
US airlines have the same problems as the Canadian. Lots of their issues are labor related.
Inefficencies are doing the rest. What really pisses me off, is once these dinosaurs are on their deathbed. "We the people", have to pay for the life support. see.. United and Delta
Keebler shows typical socialist thinking. Let the goverment take care of it. Let the taxpayer make sure that everybody can fly everywhere for the same price. Where have I read this before???
It also simply doesn't make sense. The deregulation of the airline industry in the US serves as a case in point. Reagan promised that deregulation would mean better fares, more airlines and better service. The result has been higher fares, fewer airlines and abominable service.WinterHawk said:
The trucking industry in Ontario serves as another example. When Harris deregulated the industry during his disastrous Common Sense Revolution, fares went up, unions chased for higher wages, safety plummeted and wheels started flying off transports, killing passengers in oncoming lanes.
So, while deregulation would work fine in a perfect world, somebody somewhere always tries to cut corners. The laws of competition and free markets force the industry into a downward spiral of service levels and safety. Proper, enforceable regulation makes for a better result for everyone.
Would the FDIC, which is funded by banks, which bails out failed financial institutions be another example. I'd argue no because the industry funds its own insurance. I'm ignorant if the PBGC is funded the same was or just another drain on taxpayer funds.red said:
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Whoa there, I'm not yet calling BS but I'd like to see a source that says airline prices have not declined in real dollars since deregulation. I would probably agree on the fewer airlines but why don't you source that for us as well. As for the service, I think it’s always sucked but don't put me down as a defender of the no-service service industries.happygrump said:
Would you argue that Air Canada has better service because it is more regulated and subsidized?
OTB
The problem with the deregulation is and was, it was never followed through. The feds didn't leave their hands out of it, with cheap loans and direct money.happygrump said:
Should we as taxpayer fund airlines. so we have more of them? This makes no sense.
Why is nobody funding my business, when I am in trouble? Why subsidize one, but not the other?
PBGC is funded by premiums from pension plans, but has a current deficit of 23 billion. Based on companies in financial distress from congressional study, this could grow to 96 billion in the next five years. The PBGC is expected to be broke unless its fixed, by 2021onthebottom said:
Those estimates don't even include the dimise of the big three US carmakers. I hop the goverment is putting a stop to this, and forces the large companies to properly fund their pension plans or stops offering them.red said:
