BOT will like this one

TOVisitor said:
Yeah nobody cares what women make (only have the country).

And nobody cares what non-supervisory workers make (80%).

Is there a BLS release on these changes?

OTB
 
DonQuixote said:
The problem with CEO salaries is that they don't
[I REPEAT, DO NOT] reflect the performance
of the company. These guys are nothing more than
modern day robber barrons. They get paid huge
salaries and bonuses yet there is no corresponding
increase in stock performance of their companies.

These golden-parachutes are a total rip-off.

If they perform and their companies do well
they should get paid handsomely. But, not
when the companies are tanking.

The recent rash of criminal charges against
top executives merely proves the point. I
wonder what will come of Conrad Black,
excuse me - Sir Conrad Black who renounced
his Canadian citizenship to get knighted.

Old Don would have loved to meet that moron
on an open field with my lance in hand.

Why do people have a problem with CEO salaries? They have no negative impact on my life, even if they cut CEO salaries I won't have more money in my pocket.
I wish people would be more concerned with, what the robbers do in Washington.
 
DonQuixote said:
The problem with CEO salaries is that they don't
[I REPEAT, DO NOT] reflect the performance
of the company. These guys are nothing more than
modern day robber barrons. They get paid huge
salaries and bonuses yet there is no corresponding
increase in stock performance of their companies.

These golden-parachutes are a total rip-off.

If they perform and their companies do well
they should get paid handsomely. But, not
when the companies are tanking.

The recent rash of criminal charges against
top executives merely proves the point. I
wonder what will come of Conrad Black,
excuse me - Sir Conrad Black who renounced
his Canadian citizenship to get knighted.

Old Don would have loved to meet that moron
on an open field with my lance in hand.

There are idiots in every profession.

I agree that more accountability to and by boards is necessary.

I'm going to get flamed for saying this but you need to look at CEOs like professional athletes. They get paid ridiculous packages for doing the impossible - in many cases win or lose. Executive management demand far outweighs talent and thus the free market competition for these people - think pitchers who MAY be able to win 20 games.

Another example is the golf tour - find the money list, find a guy who makes what you do, and then see what Tiger makes....

OTB
 
onthebottom said:
There are idiots in every profession.

I agree that more accountability to and by boards is necessary.

I'm going to get flamed for saying this but you need to look at CEOs like professional athletes. They get paid ridiculous packages for doing the impossible - in many cases win or lose. Executive management demand far outweighs talent and thus the free market competition for these people - think pitchers who MAY be able to win 20 games.

Another example is the golf tour - find the money list, find a guy who makes what you do, and then see what Tiger makes....

OTB

Tiger's successes are readily and easily demonstrable as his own personal accomplishments. Bad analogy. Very bad.

And if CEOs are so valuable, why hasn't the US pay structure been adopted in other countries? And don't give me any socialism crap. These are capitalists we are talking about.
 
Here's an opinion that is much more believable than your scenario.

The Winner-Steal-All Society
And the persistence of the CEO-market myth
Jerry Useem | October 20, 2002


How much is a CEO worth? These days the munificent compensation packages lavished on America's chief executives have about as many defenders as Slobodan Milosevic. The statistics are simply too obscene: In 1999, the average chief executive earned 419 times more than his or her coworkers, up from 25 times in 1981, while the 10 highest-paid executives have seen their income soar an astonishing 4,300 percent between 1981 and 2000. If factory workers' pay had grown at the same clip, their average annual earnings would now be $114,035 instead of $23,753. Yet throughout the uproar over what Fortune magazine dubbed "The Great CEO Pay Heist," one question has lingered unresolved: What's driving it all?

During the 1990s, a frequently proffered answer was "market forces." As an influential 1995 book told us, we had entered the age of "The Winner-Take-All Society," in which a few exceptionally talented performers -- athletes, entertainers, business executives -- could walk off with the lion's share of the total rewards. In the view of authors Phillip Cook and Robert Frank, a Michael Eisner-type (Eisner has raked in $1 billion at Disney since 1984) was nothing so much as an A-Rod in pinstripes: the beneficiary of an intensely competitive open market where talent was bid up to the price it deserved. We could fume all we wanted to about the inequality of it all, but then we might as well curse Adam Smith himself.

This supply-and-demand view had the ring of common sense and the backing of a vocal tribe of academics (including Sherwin Rosen, author of the classic 1981 essay "The Economics of Superstars," and Harvard Business School's Michael Jensen and University of Southern California's Kevin Murphy, who opined that "top executives are worth every nickel they get"). Yet it also ignored an inconvenient truth: that, in practice, the market for CEO talent isn't really a market at all.

A new study by Harvard Business School professor Rakesh Khurana, Searching for a Corporate Savior: The Irrational Quest for Charismatic CEOs, pulls back the curtain on how the system of CEO selection actually works -- and just how far it strays from the beau idéal of open competition. When companies are looking to hire a new CEO from outside, Khurana found, they seldom consider anyone who doesn't already hold the CEO job at a high-profile company, personally know one of the directors on the hiring company's board and look a lot like the directors themselves (usually tall and WASPy). Qualified but lesser-known internal candidates are routinely overlooked, largely because Wall Street prefers celebrity types. And what of the executive search firms that are supposedly hired to scour the country for candidates? They serve more like masters of ceremonies, Khurana found, conferring legitimacy on candidates that board members already had in their sights.

In other words, the much-lamented shortage of CEO talent -- a mantra repeated so often in corporate circles that it has achieved article-of-faith status -- is mostly a social construction of boards' own making. "The shortage of CEO talent is a myth," says Jeffrey Sonnenfeld, a professor at the Yale School of Management who studies CEOs. And no one benefits more from the persistence of that myth than the top dogs themselves.

If the market for CEO talent is based on artificial scarcity, it also suffers from a serious information problem. For a winner-take-all society to work, you need a reliable way of knowing who the winners are. In baseball that's easy: A player cannot claim to have hit 60 home runs last season when, in fact, he hit 16. In the movies, there's the incorruptible accountant of box-office returns. In business, however, it's remarkably difficult to assess how much an executive has contributed to an organization's success -- which, after all, depends on a host of external factors and the input of hundreds if not thousands of employees. A number of academic studies suggest that a company's performance depends far more on what industry it's in, general economic conditions and stock-market trends than on who occupies the executive suite. Hence Warren Buffett's dictum that when a good manager enters a bad industry, it's usually the industry's reputation that remains intact.

Yet impressions are easily manipulated. Take the case of Carly Fiorina, the former Lucent Technologies executive who was recruited to run Hewlett-Packard in 1999. At Lucent, she acquired a reputation as a superstar manager. But commentators have since questioned whether her track record there was as impressive as it seemed. Not only had she never had direct profit-and-loss responsibility as a Lucent sales chief -- thus making her efficacy hard to judge -- but Lucent's apparent high-flying success turned out to be based on creative accounting, making it one of the great business disaster stories of 2001. So where had Fiorina's sterling reputation come from? According to an account in Vanity Fair, it was her appearance on the cover of Fortune's "Most Powerful Women in Business" issue that brought her to the attention of Jeff Christian, the headhunter retained for the Hewlett-Packard search. She had become well-known, that is, for being well-known. (Whether her talents were worth every nickel of the $69.4 million she earned in her first year is, well, another question.)

As for the oft-made comparison between CEOs and star athletes, another difference is worth noting. When a big-league free agent sits down to negotiate a new multimillion dollar contract, he's sitting across the table from someone who wants to pay him less money. By contrast, when a company is courting a CEO candidate, the candidate is often sitting across the table from himself. As a precondition to accepting the job, Khurana found, most candidates insist on taking both the chairman and CEO titles as well as the right to stack the board with their cronies, thus ensuring that their future salary negotiations will be anything but adversarial. Boards usually bow obsequiously. "The reality is that when you get enough along in the [negotiation] process, you can ask for pretty much anything you want," one candidate told Khurana. "So you ask. And you get."

If all this sounds a bit like Napoleon crowning himself, it is. Not that all companies have abandoned the pretense of "market-driven" compensation entirely. Many hire compensation consultants to benchmark their CEO's pay against their industry peers. But these consultants' estimates (often inflated by a highly selective reading of who constitutes a CEO's "peer group") serve largely as political cover for boards of directors. In his testimony to the U.S. Senate, one Enron board member said he "did not worry" about high levels of compensation at Enron because he checked with a compensation consultant, Towers Perrin, which told him that Enron was "right on target" compared to other firms -- even though this meant Enron executives received $750 million in cash bonuses for a year in which the company's entire net income was $975 million.

It would be one thing if big-name CEOs produced returns commensurate with their pay packages. Do they? A company's stock often jumps on the announcement that a star CEO has been hired, leading to the inevitable remarks that he or she has already added so many billions of dollars to the company's value. But most studies find that, with few exceptions (the most notable being Lou Gerstner's resurrection of IBM), the onetime pop gives way to long-term fizzle. Michael Armstrong may have "added" $3.8 billion in value on the day of his hiring at AT&T, but he has since subtracted $30 billion.

In the meantime, many of those CEOs have transferred ungodly sums of money from shareholders to their own pockets. It's a reminder that, when it comes to CEO pay, the grasping hand usually trumps the invisible one. And it's cause for wondering: When, exactly, did the winner-take-all society become the winner-steal-all society?

Jerry Useem is a senior writer for Fortune.
http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=the_winnerstealall_society
 
TOVisitor said:
Here's an opinion that is much more believable than your scenario.

Ok

are you paided based solely on your performance?
 
TOVisitor said:
Tiger's successes are readily and easily demonstrable as his own personal accomplishments. Bad analogy. Very bad.

Try a pitcher or NBA analogy if you don't have the imagination to extend it beyond my example.

TOVisitor said:
And if CEOs are so valuable, why hasn't the US pay structure been adopted in other countries? And don't give me any socialism crap. These are capitalists we are talking about.

You have to remember that North America, practically a single market, represents 25% of the world GDP - it's a very big market. Since we're on sports analogies, North America is the major leagues..... Though, having said that, I'm sure there are cultural differences that contribute to this... We do have Ben and Jerry...

OTB
 
TOVisitor said:
Here's an opinion that is much more believable than your scenario.

Nicly pulled from the DU clipboard.

The one point I do agree with is Board oversight, which you will notice I called out without the benefit of copy/paste - that would be the difference between knowing something about the subject and relying on talking points.

BTW, the top 3 executives at my firm are a Jewish man, a Jewish woman and a Black man who's friends with Clinton.... not your average WASP country club.

OTB
 
onthebottom said:
Nicly pulled from the DU clipboard.

The one point I do agree with is Board oversight, which you will notice I called out without the benefit of copy/paste - that would be the difference between knowing something about the subject and relying on talking points.

BTW, the top 3 executives at my firm are a Jewish man, a Jewish woman and a Black man who's friends with Clinton.... not your average WASP country club.

OTB

Never went to DU.

I used something on the tubes called the Google. Always do.

I know you never post anything from any other web site, so I am humbled by your greatness.

And isn't that sweet? Some of your buddies are Jewish or black. Do you want a medal?
 
TOVisitor said:
Here's an opinion that is much more believable than your scenario.

So what's next? have the goverment regulate salaries???or bonuses?..smells like communism to me...
 
TOVisitor said:
Never went to DU.

I used something on the tubes called the Google. Always do.

I know you never post anything from any other web site, so I am humbled by your greatness.

And isn't that sweet? Some of your buddies are Jewish or black. Do you want a medal?

You bold the WASPy section not me. I couldn't afford their country club, but I am considering a less expensive one in Ohio....

OTB
 
frasier said:
So what's next? have the goverment regulate salaries???or bonuses?..smells like communism to me...

I would like to see a wage tied to performance for welfare workers.
 
frasier said:
So what's next? have the goverment regulate salaries???or bonuses?..smells like communism to me...

It's the politics of envy meets the politics of conspiracy.....

OTB
 
onthebottom said:
Try a pitcher or NBA analogy if you don't have the imagination to extend it beyond my example.

OTB

My imagination is quite good.

We can easily measure how many point or rebounds an NBA player achieves or how many homers or strikeouts an MLB player makes. It's published every day in the paper with the person's name.

While stock performance is published, we know that stocks are very volatile and may represent the herd (among many, many other things), rather than anything a CEO does.

Still a bad analogy.
 
frasier said:
So what's next? have the goverment regulate salaries???or bonuses?..smells like communism to me...

I am surprised that you know what a bonus is. Do the folks like you who work all day inside septic tanks actually get one?

Give it up, lange.
 
papasmerf said:
I would like to see a wage tied to performance for welfare workers.

Now there is a thought I would love to see TOV put in a honest day of work...:p