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healer677

Dos XX at Senor Frogs
Jan 13, 2004
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Well, theres a surprise.

The San Francisco chronicle released testimony from the BALCO grand jury transcripts that Bonds was on juice.

Really.

All the denials in the past, with the press just shows the truth.

He will claim he didn't know what the "cream" or supplement really was. Linseed oil? ok Barry.

I guess gaining 30 lbs of muscle and launching home run balls 500ft at his age, this late in his career was just a testimony that he matured late.
 

Ranger68

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Mar 17, 2003
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Never a doubt.
Same with guys like Sosa. Again, anyone notice how small he's gotten? A frightening testament to the power of these drugs.

It's a black mark on baseball, and looks deservedly bad on the powers-that-be, from the Union to the "commissioner" (if only they had one).
 

n_v

Banned
Aug 26, 2001
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healer677 said:

He will claim he didn't know what the "cream" or supplement really was. Linseed oil? ok Barry.
Do you ever catch him speak? Bonds doesn't strike me as the most intelligent apple on the tree. But then witht he mass he put on and the hits he must have known someting was up.
 

homonger

I'm not really back
Oct 27, 2001
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To echo the sentiment expressed here, "Gee, what a surprise!"

Remember when guys like Sosa and Bonds came up? Bonds was a speedy, normal sized guy, with slightly above average power. He seemed like a stronger version of Tim Raines. But then this guy developed into one of the most prolific home run hitters of all time in his late 30's? Gee, I wonder how that happened? Before and after pics of Michael Jackson always get a laugh, I would like to see before and after pics of Bonds.

Ken Caminiti, also, duh. He comes up, and he is at best, a better fielding Ray Knight. Suddenly he becomes a home run hitter and an MVP? I think the public has long known that these kinds of improvements just aren't natural.
 

healer677

Dos XX at Senor Frogs
Jan 13, 2004
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I'm trying to dig up some of face pics of Bonds and maybe Sosa.

A tell tale sign of growth hormone use by adults is the shapening of the jaw line. Usually on a picture you can see how the jaw bone kind of grows and squares off the head.

But baseballs drug policy (or lack of one) invites the players to do this. Selig should be ashamed of himself - the MLBPA somehow is to blame as well for "protecting" the interests of players too much.

I'd love to see in a few years how many of these guys develop mystery cardiac ailments, cancers of different sorts - kind of the East German swin teams of the 70s and 80s. Well, Caminiti dropped dead already - who next?
 

Ranger68

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Mar 17, 2003
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Canseco would be my bet.

It's just very very sad. How do the guys in charge of all of this sleep at night? Okay - nobody's in charge. How about guys who could make a difference? Fehr and Selig sicken me.
 

antaeus

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Sep 3, 2004
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All athletes from serious hobbiests up to the pros are on a supplements regimen. My experience includes college football and pro camp, 5 years of triathlons, gf who was olympic gymnast and a friend in NHL. In all these circles the dominating conversation (after schedules, games, meets, etc.) is supplements. All athlete hobbiests and up that I mixed with were on a usually self directed supplement intake plan that bordered on religious fervour and in-depth chemical-biological knowledge of the metabolic, endocrinal, hormonal and performance affects. Some of the supplements were wierd, some run of the mill, and indeed some seemed dangerous. I knew athlete hobbiests who ingested chromium, creatine, fibre shakes, royal jelly, Sudafed by the package, beta blockers, blood boosting, recreational antihistamines, 100's of "muscle max___" pills and powders, vitamin combos, alot of "herbal teas" and good ol' caffiene pills. I personally never saw athletes swallow or inject steroids although anti-inflammatory steroid creams and sprays were always prevalent.

All of these topical supplements (certain name brand's excepted) are totally unregulated in their ingredients and manufacture. And all were self administered based on what the person believed in, which best I could figure out was arrived at by absorbing and distilling the intense discussions prevalent whenever we got together, and consequent supplements experimentation!

Any athlete nowadays caught by testing and tearfully says "I never..." is just lying. They all do, it's nothing special when it's been part of your daily routine for 10 - 20 years and everybody you've ever trained with or chummed around with is doing it too. Top competitive athletes' top performance level has surpassed what a totally natural human body can achieve through physical and mental preparation only, barring the occasional physical freak of nature. Guys like Mcgwire, Sosa, Bonds, Giambi thrive on their strange, unique supplements brew that helped get them to where they are, but then they max out, change their supplements, training and trainers, but thats it, ceiling, possible injury from intense training, frustration, who knows. So they start popping/injecting to get that continuous improvement they used to notice. As my NHL buddy said regarding the serious chemicals, they're always there just like the coke machine.
 

healer677

Dos XX at Senor Frogs
Jan 13, 2004
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Its one thing to "supplement", it's another thing to lie.

I could not possibly care less what people do to their own bodies - I've seen people use HGH, anabolics, EPO, the list goes on and on. These clowns are getting paid a lot of money to perform - they're taking their lives into their own hands (same as race car drivers) - so it's their business.

But,

if you're in a sport where drug testing is a standard ....and ....you get caught. Well - suck it up. Does it take a grand jury to get this truth out? As far as sealing public court records - whats the deal with the Freedom of Information Act? Screw the athletes - I don't think a public figure who has broken, maybe not the law but; at the very least the rules, is entitled to this.

I say list all the names - let them burn in the press and in the court of public opinion.

By the way Ranger - Canseco....that's a good pick. How about McGwire too?
 

the_big_E

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Feb 28, 2003
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The Hammer
on PTI the other day they were talking about the whole steroids thing, I imagine they will do so more tonight after this came out...but the other day Tom Kurkijan from stated that homeruns are down from 2 years ago, so I cant believe people are denying they used 'roids....one thing though, its not necessarily a great thing, but I at least applaud Giambi for coming out and admitting it...sure he may never play again and Yankees might terminate his contract, but then again he probably has enough money for his post-baseball career...
 

Ranger68

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Mar 17, 2003
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When they start talking about hgh, I get really really concerned. The supplements are one thing, but the really serious stuff (to beg the question) is frightening.

Yeah, McGwire's up there. It's just that Canseco's life seems that it may be on that same downward spiral that Caminiti's was on, for a variety of factors.

Every time I think about it, it makes me sad. Boy, have they ever fucked up a simple game.
 

Asterix

Sr. Member
Aug 6, 2002
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Bonds is one of the most careful athletes in baseball as far as what he puts into his body, almost to the point of paranoia. He wouldn't eat at the training table with the rest of his team, didn't trust the team doctor or trainer, and if he went out to a restaurant would probably be tempted to send the food out for testing. Yet he would have us believe he had no idea the cream was for anything else than arthritis, seemingly ignoring he was gaining 30+ lbs and that his head had expanded by two cap sizes. A sad attempt to save his ass.

When Maris passed Ruth they put an asterisk next to his name in the record books to indicate he had played in a season that was eight games longer. Perhaps a more appropriate symbol next to the records of players known to be on steroids, would be a small syringe.
 
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Toronto Passions

Trusted Since 2001!
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Shefield said the same thing. "He didn't know".
 

MRMARCUS

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Dec 12, 2001
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MISSISSAUGA
Let's point a finger at one guy, antaeus said it best. ALL athletes have been doing the STUFF since the early 70's if not before. Funny how all the East germans get too keep there gold medals, but Ben Johnson is shunned by the world community.

Yes Sosa, Mcquire, Giambi and many more athletes have taken sauce and have made millions, what else is new.

The biggest fraud is Lance Armstrong, please.

They ALL take it so who cares about Bonds.
 

Ranger68

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Mar 17, 2003
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They should ALL stop, and we should punish EVERYONE we find doing it.
I'm all in favour of all this retroactive testing that's going on. Strip every medal from everyone proven to be cheating. Eliminate every record set by a cheater. I guess that would include all of Bonds' - ignorance is no excuse.
 

plyrs99

great white hooter hunter
Mar 15, 2004
424
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i agree with ranger68, whoever gets caught, or admits to it years down the road, strip them of all their medals. if they were not medallists, put asteriks and disclaimers with their records!

it really is a sad, sad statement of our times, that these guys value millions over their own health. and what a horrid statement to be making to our kids, and all other future generations.

Plyrs99
 

Tiger Williams

Lemming like devotion....
Feb 27, 2004
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Ranger68 said:
I'm all in favour of all this retroactive testing that's going on. Strip every medal from everyone proven to be cheating. Eliminate every record set by a cheater. I guess that would include all of Bonds' - ignorance is no excuse.
Ignorance?
Ranger.......you can't actually believe Bonds didn't have a clue he was doing juice. This crap about the cream and the clear is just that. CRAP.
You don't get the size, stength and power gains he did unless injections are taking place. (the cream and the orals are simply a part of the regimen)
And if you want to start stripping medals.........a good place would be the past dozen or so winners in the 100 meters.
Better yet.....just take a hard look at the past winners of the Jesse Owens award.
You can start with Carl Lewis in 1982.
 

shack

Nitpicker Extraordinaire
Oct 2, 2001
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I don't think Ranger actually believes Bonds didn't know. He's saying that even if one were to believe the (laughable) claim of ignorance it still shouldn't let him off the hook.
 

Toronto Passions

Trusted Since 2001!
Supporting Member
MRMARCUS said:
Let's point a finger at one guy, antaeus said it best. ALL athletes have been doing the STUFF since the early 70's if not before. Funny how all the East germans get too keep there gold medals, but Ben Johnson is shunned by the world community.

Yes Sosa, Mcquire, Giambi and many more athletes have taken sauce and have made millions, what else is new.

The biggest fraud is Lance Armstrong, please.

They ALL take it so who cares about Bonds.
As for Sosa. Let us not also forget the cork in his bat. Who knows how many dingers he hit with that.
 

Ranger68

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Mar 17, 2003
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Tiger Williams said:
Ignorance?
Ranger.......you can't actually believe Bonds didn't have a clue he was doing juice. This crap about the cream and the clear is just that. CRAP.
You don't get the size, stength and power gains he did unless injections are taking place. (the cream and the orals are simply a part of the regimen)
And if you want to start stripping medals.........a good place would be the past dozen or so winners in the 100 meters.
Better yet.....just take a hard look at the past winners of the Jesse Owens award.
You can start with Carl Lewis in 1982.
Of course he knew. His defense seems that it will be he didn't know. Which is no defense.
 
They had a poll on ESPN's website the other day. Would you take steroids if it meant a multi-million dollar contract. Results 50% No 49.9% Yes. 146K entries. Pretty sad state we're in. For me, I'm tired of subjecting my child to all the steroid talk and NBA violence. I'm going to switch the channel to WWF and play Grand Theft Auto on the play station instead. Ironically, with all the trouble with MLB, NHL, and the NBA, the NFL is percieved to be doing great. This is the league that traditionally has had the most accusations of steriod use, but maybe their testing policy is either working or giving us the appearence that it is working. At least it looks like they give a damn. I think part of the problem is you have exceptional atheletes that have always been pampered. They can do what they want in high school, recieve payoffs and cover up problems in college. Then they go to the highest level, and the penalties for drug, violence, and steriod abuse are a joke. Then when something goes horribly wrong, the league steps in and says "we will not tolerate this." Selig and Stern are as much to blame as anyone. They give teenagers piles of cash and expect them to act mature fashion. Who knows, maybe there is some logic to the NFL not drafting kids until 21 and letting them grow up a litte first.
 
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