Bonds

[antaeus]

They had a poll on ESPN's website the other day. Would you take steroids if it meant a multi-million dollar contract. Results 50% No 49.9% Yes. 146K entries. ....

And this is the media and sport governing bodies 'head in the sand' approach. It doesn't start with money, it's a natural progression from a lifetime of supplements.

Again, elaboration from my other post. ALL athletes who settle on a sport as a serious hobby grow into a confirmed daily regimen of supplements. Moving up the scale of hobby to league to semi to pro the supplements only become more serious, more obscure, more potent and pharmaceutical. I would guess that 90-95% are non-pharmaceutical, topical dietary items available in all countries. All athletes reach physical or mental blocks or ceilings due to natural causes or injury, also sometimes nagging little problem (shaky leg, impotence, hemarroids). It's extremely frustrating when something you've done for years no longer works and the lost training time is major issue. I think athlete's ALWAYS accept buddies' hearsay evidence FIRST of restorative or direct effect of xxxxxxx. I've heard: "I think these came from his source in Sweden or Denmark" and "My brother in Hong Kong sends them". Athlete gets caught, presented with an actual unpronouncable pharmaceutical name, unknown acronym and metabolic effect, of course he's gonna say, truthfully too, "I didn't know".

I believe that it's this culture of dietary supplements that is to blame moreso than anything else. I cannot stress enough that it has become so routine by athlete's and the belief so in-grained, you might as well ask a batter to go up to bat without a bat. Reread interesting quote from Stalin: "A million dead is a statistic, a traffic fatality is a national disaster." With these athletes there are no national disasters.

Interesting documentary a while back. Some footballer was saying back in 70's halftime was a smoke and coffee break in the locker room! Nowadays, it's probably pills, sprays, creams, odd liquids, hypodermics...

 

[homonger]

"Chicks dig the long ball". "Home run hitters drive Cadillacs". Two quotes from two different eras, but nonetheless they sum up the incentive to use steroids.

I'm not saying the fans are to blame, but let's face it, we love our home run hitters. McGwire and Sosa supposedly saved baseball back in 1998, and it was because they were hitting home runs.

More broadly, professional athletes make their livelihood with their bodies, and the temptation to get bigger, faster, stronger, through drugs is probably more than most guys could resist.

 

[Warm Hands]

Bonds is probably the biggest SOB to play the game since Ty Cobb. This couldn't be happening to a more deserving guy. Say what you want about McGwire, who was every bit as guilty of taking the juice. At least he always admitted it.

WH

 

[red]

all their records should be stripped from records book

 

[superquad1968]

First of all, let me first say that performance enhancing steroids [as opposed to life-saving steroids] are wrong and should be illegal. I also agree that Bonds is an SOB but would have been a hall of famer if, in fact, he did take steroids.

However, from a legal standpoint there is nothing that can be done against Bonds, Giambi, or Jones at this point in time. In baseball there has been no provision for the exclusion of the athlete. You can't retroactively put in a law that says that those that took steroids in the past should be punished now.

Imagine if there came into being a law that said prostitution was illegal and is so heinous that those who partook were also committing an illegal act and therefore should be jailed. Would that be fair? Of course not. In the same way we cannot scratch Bonds from anything. Asterisk OK but other than that MLB would be in court for a while.

In the sme way I hear that Steinbrenner is thinking of voiding Giambi's contract. If he tries the MLBPA and Giambi's lawyers will have the Yankees in court. What did he violate?

At the time there was no test for the things that Marion Jones was alleged to have taken. At the same time we have only the word of a slimeball who is now out to save himself. Without corroborating evidence Jones cannot/ should not be punished.

All this hubris right now seems much-ado-about-nothing.

 

[Ranger68]

Baseball has a law *today* banning steroids. If it can be proven that Bonds took steroids while the law was on the books, he can be banned, and that's that.
In fact, if it's proven that he broke criminal laws, baseball would probably be free to take action. Some of those drugs he was taking may in fact have been illegal. Time will tell. It will be up to the players to take action in courts, and yes, that may take a while - until these cases were settled, however, baseball would be free to do what they please, MLBPA be damned.

As for international sports, track and field, the Olympics etc, they've all had very stiff penalties in place for years now. I wholly concur with their decision to *retroactively* test samples taken years ago for drugs they can only now detect. They are doing so, and will continue. Surely you are aware of this?

I certainly hope Jones' medals are all stripped, as seems likely. The evidence will soon be in.

 

[Asterix]

More than any other player in baseball, Bonds reminds me most of Pete Rose. Both were shoe-ins to the Hall of Fame by the time they decided to cheat, and both have gone out of their way to deny, to ridiculous extremes, what everyone else long ago suspected.

I posted this quote by Rose a year or so ago, but it bears repeating. A testament to how people living a lie wind up becoming a caricature of themselves.

"I'd be willing to bet you, if I was a betting man, that I have not bet on baseball." Pete Rose, 1989.

 

[antaeus]

... Some of those drugs he was taking may in fact have been illegal. Time will tell. ...

Posession of legal pharmaceuticals, scrip or no, isn't necessarily illegal. How he or any athlete came to posess them, if he transported them across state / international borders or if, ironically, it can be shown he profited from supplying them to someone else, may be of LE interest. If lab was conducting Phase I or II clinical trials then the lab would be indicted.

I am ambivalent about retroactive medal stripping and records deletion. Mainly, as in my previous rants, dietary and pharmaceutical supplements are just such normal behaviour amongst all athletes. No pharmaceutical takes the place of hard work.

Bonds, Sosa, Mcgwire, misc. track athletes will always carry the Pete Rose - OJ Simpson stigma. Always.

 

[superquad1968]

Baseball has a law *today* banning steroids. If it can be proven that Bonds took steroids while the law was on the books, he can be banned, and that's that.

Agreed. But that is today's law not yesterday's.

In fact, if it's proven that he broke criminal laws, baseball would probably be free to take action. Some of those drugs he was taking may in fact have been illegal. Time will tell. It will be up to the players to take action in courts, and yes, that may take a while - until these cases were settled, however, baseball would be free to do what they please, MLBPA be damned.

Seems to me that you are advocating that the law be dammed. "We don't like it so screw you". There has been no statement from LE that they will pursue criminal proceedings. In fact their grand jury testimony in the BALCO case was obtained for that. Which raises another point. Grand jury testimony is supposed to be sealed.

As for international sports, track and field, the Olympics etc, they've all had very stiff penalties in place for years now. I wholly concur with their decision to *retroactively* test samples taken years ago for drugs they can only now detect. They are doing so, and will continue. Surely you are aware of this?

Yes. As a national team member at the 1996 Atlanta Paralympics I have been read the riot act. But when do statute of limitations run out? Imagine if they developed a test for marijuana that detected the use of that drug years prior. Imagine that your new employer is allowed to send you for a drug test using the new test. Would you scream blue murder. Damn right. I would.

I certainly hope Jones' medals are all stripped, as seems likely. The evidence will soon be in.

You wish. Jones will certaainly end up in court. Look I also hold much of the same indignation and contempt for people who cheat. It just seems to me that all this uproar is for naught.

 

[Ranger68]

Agreed. But that is today's law not yesterday's.

This law has been on the books for over a year now. If it can be proven that he took steroids while the law was on the books, buh-bye.

Seems to me that you are advocating that the law be dammed. "We don't like it so screw you". There has been no statement from LE that they will pursue criminal proceedings. In fact their grand jury testimony in the BALCO case was obtained for that. Which raises another point. Grand jury testimony is supposed to be sealed.

Not at all. Just that it will be up to the players to appeal. Look, baseball can act in its best interests. If a player doesn't agree, that's what outside authority is for. To imply that there isn't a damn thing baseball can do about it is false.

Yes. As a national team member at the 1996 Atlanta Paralympics I have been read the riot act. But when do statute of limitations run out? Imagine if they developed a test for marijuana that detected the use of that drug years prior. Imagine that your new employer is allowed to send you for a drug test using the new test. Would you scream blue murder. Damn right. I would.

If you break the law in the past, but you're not caught until today, you're still a criminal.

You wish. Jones will certaainly end up in court. Look I also hold much of the same indignation and contempt for people who cheat. It just seems to me that all this uproar is for naught.

Jones will likely be stripped of her medals - if there are court proceedings, it will be JONES trying to get something done - that's what I said before. The IOC won't have to go to court to have her performances stricken from the books.

Why is all this uproar for naught?

 

[Esco!]

Never a doubt.
Same with guys like Sosa. Again, anyone notice how small he's gotten? A frightening testament to the power of these drugs.

It's a black mark on baseball, and looks deservedly bad on the powers-that-be, from the Union to the "commissioner" (if only they had one).

I didnt hear about this. How much smaller did Sosa become and do you have any links or pics??

 

[Esco!]

I'm trying to dig up some of face pics of Bonds and maybe Sosa.

A tell tale sign of growth hormone use by adults is the shapening of the jaw line. Usually on a picture you can see how the jaw bone kind of grows and squares off the head

Yes but it's only HGH that does that, regular oil and water based steroids do not. They only give you acne, bloating etc

 

[superquad1968]

This law has been on the books for over a year now. If it can be proven that he took steroids while the law was on the books, buh-bye.

Agreed. However, the admissions are for before the law came into being.

Not at all. Just that it will be up to the players to appeal. Look, baseball can act in its best interests. If a player doesn't agree, that's what outside authority is for. To imply that there isn't a damn thing baseball can do about it is false.

Of course MLB can do what it wants. But in the end who will win?

If you break the law in the past, but you're not caught until today, you're still a criminal.

What law was broken?

Jones will likely be stripped of her medals - if there are court proceedings, it will be JONES trying to get something done - that's what I said before. The IOC won't have to go to court to have her performances stricken from the books.

How can you punish someone who was tested repeatedly but came up negative? Again, what will be the end result? Why is it likely that she will be stripped of her medals and according to who? All on the word of Conte? Give me corroboration from someone not under the gun and I might (Just might ) give it to you.

Pound since his failure to become head of one of the largest corrupt organizations, the IOC, has a huge hardon to get his ego in the spotlight. Does it not seem hypocritical for the IOC to go after Jones? Pot meet Kettle.

Why is all this uproar for naught?

Naught in that I believe that the end result will be nothing except for some awareness of the dangers of steroids. Which is a good thing.

 

[Ranger68]

I'm not sure that ANY law was broken by Bonds et al. But, if they *did*, baseball could act in its best interests, despite the fact that they didn't have a coherent drug policy.

How can you punish someone who was tested repeatedly but came up negative? You discover a better test, and they test positive.
The IOC will act to strip her medals. They've done so already in several retroactive test cases. Good for them. I don't care how corrupt they are - well, I do, but that's not what we're talking about. Don't deflect.

I believe you're wrong that naught will come of this, but time will tell.