Bloc 10%-50 seats, Greens 7%-0 seats, huh?

[LancsLad]

Ryerson is kinda like Newfie jokes (heard of Ry High?). If you really think I was serious that's even funnier than my original joke.

Ry High was a good one. Cow College was also thought by some to be offensive to those at Guelph. Of course Ottawa had Cartoon U.





.

 

[oldjones]

It's even worse under a proportional system--it's often just not even POSSIBLE to unseat the government. For example consider Germany where they've got a "grand coalition" made up of the two largest parties--how exactly do you throw the bums out under that arrangement? You could shift the relative proportions back and forth one ccle after another but essentially the same old farts will be in power year after year after year just under different coalitions and there will be bloody nothing you can do to turf them out.

Under some proportional systems there are party lists the result of which is that the cronies at the top of the list are essentially UNDEFEATABLE--they simply CANNOT lose their seats.

I am not in favour of any system of government in which the politicians aren't afraid of the voters--that is anathema to democracy. Democracy works because although we voters get a say only once every five years, our say is leveraged by our electoral system so that small swings in voter preference result in big swings in government--and that makes our say powerful enough that it puts the fear of god into the politicians.

The only point I'd agree with is that in some PR systems, voting for party rather than person makes it hard to dump someone you particularly dislike. But then I can't dump Harper either, unless I move to his riding.

If there are elections, and they aren't fixed, then we get to vote new folks in If they choose to run and we choose them. Same thing anywhere, even Germany. You can't make new people stand for office just because you're fed up with the old. Point is to give the new and untested folks a system they can build in. Ours does that poorly, unless all the people who support the new gang happen to live in one place: Quebec, or Alberta f'rinstance.

Our say isn't leveraged by our system, if anything our system dilutes our say: who's afraid of a million Green Voters? No one. But are they vewwy afwaid of a few Alberta Reformers? Or Bloquistes? You betcha. Promise anything to keep them in camp. Remember the days when "Quebec nation" would only pass the lips of a Conservative leader under direst torture?

The leverage in our system all belongs to the pols, like the Cons whose rigid controls and in depth databases put effort where it could translate the minimum number of votes—they only got 10,000 or so more than last time nationwide—into the maximum number of seats. That's leverage. But it wasn't voter's leverage. which would have translated the 2 to 1 that shifted away from the Cons into opposition seats. If there was such a thing as 'our' leverage.

If Harper had the fear of God in him contemplating the Canadian electorate, why ever did he call an election instead of just finishing the mandate to govern like a majority? A 'mandate' he'd exercised longer than any previous minority government? No, he was so eager you could almost see him licking the drool, convinced Dion had shot himself in both feet and his backroom boys would pick off a majority from narrow-margin Liberal ridings. More like our dysfunctional system was the answer to his prayers.

 

[Brotherman]

Most countries?????? Sats to support would be nice. You know, facts???

Manyof the prosperous ( read Free Western Nations) have the Parliamentary system.


The US is the exception but most of your beloved republics are piss poor shitholes that no one cares about.



.

You mean those shitholes called France that Canada has such a deep cultural heritage too?

 

[LancsLad]

You mean those shitholes called France that Canada has such a deep cultural heritage too?

Thats one of them. hardly a place to emulate.




.

 

[fuji]

The only point I'd agree with is that in some PR systems, voting for party rather than person makes it hard to dump someone you particularly dislike. But then I can't dump Harper either, unless I move to his riding.

True, but SOMEONE can unseat him. In the election just past several top ministers lost their seats. Under a PR system they would have been at the top of the list and therefore undefeatable.

It is healthy for politicians to have to worry about voters kicking them out. It focusses their minds.

Our say isn't leveraged by our system

It plainly is leveraged. It's PLAINLY the case that a small shift in voter opinion translates into a large shift in seats in Parliament.

Under a PR system the difference between 27% and 37% popular support is a difference of 31 seats in a 308 seat Parliament. In the election we just had that exact difference in popular vote resulted in a difference of 67 seats--more than twice as many. That is leverage.

The practical effect of that is that politicians in Canada have to get a whole lot more worried about small shifts in voter sentiment than their peers in Germany do.

who's afraid of a million Green Voters?

I would imagine they scare the crap out of the Liberals and cost them many seats in the most recent election.

Sooner or later the Liberals will be FORCED to deal with the Greens and integrate their ideas into their platform. That is the only way they'll ever win an election again.

That is a good thing--it forces a more systematic integration of the two platforms into one cohesive strategic whole which is much, much better than the last-minute coalition government mishmash.

The WORST thing you can have is inconsistent leadership. The second worst thing you can have is politicians who do not have any fear of voters. PR systems produce inconsistent governments that have little fear of voters. Ours produces consistent governments who are obsessed with small changes in voter opinion.

 

[Brotherman]

Thats one of them. hardly a place to emulate.




.

If i was in Quebec, I'd vote bloc

 

[rama putri]

There is a simple solution that most democracies use: Proportional representation.

Then Toronto and Montreal will pretty much always rule Canada. Too many people looking for too much fairness in the world. Just learn to deal with it and move on. BTW most democracies don't use proportional representation.

 

[Billy Box]

Election result:

Quebec:
Bloc - 50
Liberals - 13
Conservatives - 10
NDP - 1
Ind - 1
A Duceppe majority of 25


Rest of Canada:
Conservatives - 133
Liberals - 63
NDP - 36
Ind - 1
A Harper majority of 33

 

[spatial_k]

BTW most democracies don't use proportional representation.

Can you point me to a source on that? I can't really find a comprehensive list, the only thing I came up with was this: http://www.mirsaya.com/cufvc/moderncountries.html

Edit- I found this, for anyone interested- http://www.idea.int/esd/world.cfm