Baseball HOF
- Thread starter Ranger68
- Start date
You wouldnt put Mariano Rivera in?? The best post-season closer ever?? Most saves, how many world series 3, 4?...I know you'll bring in the whole save has only been a stat since X but even that being said I think Rivera is good to make it. I'd have to say Schilling too, his regular season numbers arent outstanding or gawdy like say Clemens or Unit (184 - 123, 3.32, 1.11 WHIP, .236 BAA) but he should still get what 215-230 wins? In addition to his 2 world series rings, I think he would go too. But we dont decide so time will tell...
Rivera:
There aren't too many guys in the HOF based on saves - two, to be precise (Fingers and Eckersley - both won Cy *and* MVP once each). He's only been in the top ten of MVP voting once, when he finished 9th. He's never won Cy. He's only led the league in Saves three times - each time, he's won the Rolaids relief award. The post-season only means so much. If that's all you've got, I'd say it's not enough. You don't get into the Hall just because you played on great teams.
Schilling:
Morris has more Wins, by a lot, and he's not in. How much more does Schilling have in him? He doesn't even have 200 Wins, and NOBODY gets in with that few.
Neither guy is that close, and neither has that much time left. Both would need three or four more *excellent* season to solidify candidacy.
There aren't too many guys in the HOF based on saves - two, to be precise (Fingers and Eckersley - both won Cy *and* MVP once each). He's only been in the top ten of MVP voting once, when he finished 9th. He's never won Cy. He's only led the league in Saves three times - each time, he's won the Rolaids relief award. The post-season only means so much. If that's all you've got, I'd say it's not enough. You don't get into the Hall just because you played on great teams.
Schilling:
Morris has more Wins, by a lot, and he's not in. How much more does Schilling have in him? He doesn't even have 200 Wins, and NOBODY gets in with that few.
Neither guy is that close, and neither has that much time left. Both would need three or four more *excellent* season to solidify candidacy.
I just scoped out baseballreference.com, and I agree with their analysis of the situation - the three active pitchers I think will *certainly* get in are Clemens, Johnson, and Maddux (in that order of greatness). Everyone after that needs to do more - in order, that would be Pedro, Glavine, Schilling, Rivera, Smoltz, and Franco. Nobody else is even close.
Of the batters, they've got Bonds, Gwynn, Ripken, A-Rod (already!), Alomar, Sosa, Henderson, and I-Rod. All of these guys are locks. After that, I think we may be talking Veteran's Committee appointees - Big Hurt, McGwire (injuries hurt both), and Raffy. The exception is Pizza, who ain't done quite yet, and who EASILY qualifies as the greatest hitting catcher of all time.
The thing is, I think Bagwell is really underrated on that list. I think he's *easily* the equal of Palmeiro / Big Hurt / McGwire in the overall scheme of things.
Anyway, I've got three lock pitchers and eight lock position players in the league right now. My boat's full.
Of the batters, they've got Bonds, Gwynn, Ripken, A-Rod (already!), Alomar, Sosa, Henderson, and I-Rod. All of these guys are locks. After that, I think we may be talking Veteran's Committee appointees - Big Hurt, McGwire (injuries hurt both), and Raffy. The exception is Pizza, who ain't done quite yet, and who EASILY qualifies as the greatest hitting catcher of all time.
The thing is, I think Bagwell is really underrated on that list. I think he's *easily* the equal of Palmeiro / Big Hurt / McGwire in the overall scheme of things.
Anyway, I've got three lock pitchers and eight lock position players in the league right now. My boat's full.
The baseball hall of fame is probably the toughest HOF of the 4 major N. America sports to get into. I think that's a good thing. And I think the other leagues should also adopt such high and difficult standards.
All of the ball players mentioned in this thread certainly deserve consideration, but alot will not get in cause they were not 'great' for a long enough period. No one will argue the 'sure shots', although I think McGwire is a lock just based on his HR numbers alone. Bagwell will be a lock after 2-3 more good yrs.
To me, Hall of Fame should include only 'great' players- players that were dominant, players who were year in and year out- all stars. Players who were the leagues elite for many, many years- not just flash in the pans.
And a Hall having such high standards makes it that much more prestigious when you've been elected. Take the Hockey Hall of Fame for instance- it's loaded with players that were just 'good' or 'very good', but not neccessarily great. A couple of years ago, there was that player from the NY Islanders who was elected in and I thought to myself- 'who the hell is he?' Was he really THAT good? The numbers he got in with were not very impressive at all.
Was he a good player?- yeah i'm sure. Was he a winning player?- yeah he was part of the Islander dynasty. But Hall of Famer?- Not even close. The fact that I can't even remember his full name says alot about his 'elite' status.
As funny as it sounds, the NHL should take a note from MLB in this regard.
All of the ball players mentioned in this thread certainly deserve consideration, but alot will not get in cause they were not 'great' for a long enough period. No one will argue the 'sure shots', although I think McGwire is a lock just based on his HR numbers alone. Bagwell will be a lock after 2-3 more good yrs.
To me, Hall of Fame should include only 'great' players- players that were dominant, players who were year in and year out- all stars. Players who were the leagues elite for many, many years- not just flash in the pans.
And a Hall having such high standards makes it that much more prestigious when you've been elected. Take the Hockey Hall of Fame for instance- it's loaded with players that were just 'good' or 'very good', but not neccessarily great. A couple of years ago, there was that player from the NY Islanders who was elected in and I thought to myself- 'who the hell is he?' Was he really THAT good? The numbers he got in with were not very impressive at all.
Was he a good player?- yeah i'm sure. Was he a winning player?- yeah he was part of the Islander dynasty. But Hall of Famer?- Not even close. The fact that I can't even remember his full name says alot about his 'elite' status.
As funny as it sounds, the NHL should take a note from MLB in this regard.
A-Rod should be considered a 3rd baseman. He did well both batting and fielding this year with the Yankee's and if he continues to play this position and excel by winning a few gold gloves and of course batting for power then everyone will realize that he can be considered a top 3rd baseman as well.
Ciao,
VT
Ciao,
VT
Hear hear.matrix2004 said:
McGwire's injuries have really hurt him, though. And, I think the inflated offensive numbers will really hurt Bagwell, who's also playing during a time of GREAT hitting 1B - McGwire, Thomas, etc.matrix2004 said:
Yep. Otherwise, it just gets too crowded. Let's just award the elite.matrix2004 said:
Why should A-Rod be considered a thirdbaseman, and does it matter? He's still the best hitting player at third.VincenzoTurismo said:
Anyway, I disagree - he was a shortstop for TEN YEARS, two of which won him Gold Gloves.
If he plays another nine years at third, we'll talk.
Again - no difference - he's a first ballot HOFer when it's done - one of the best of all time.
