Are Tamil's "Real Canadians"

[oldjones]

Since the original Provinces already existed, and didn't even change their governments, and some colonies continued as colonies, then joined later with barely a ripple, I'd call the British Parliament's BNA Act just another evolutionary mile marker.

Makes for a convenient holiday, and did establish yet another government, but we were here before that, just being Canadian (or Canadiens, or more particularly Nova Scotians etc. if put to the question). Just like the English were, well… English, before there was a King who could legitimately claim to rule the whole place.

To me the essence of Canadianess, especially when seen in contrast by looking south, is evolutionary progress. Always the way of the parliamentary democracy we inheirited, we had to adapt right from the Plains of Abraham to the fact that there is no one model of the true Canadian.

And something of that tolerance is what our Tamils can perhaps take back to their homeland and show their conquerors. But not if we lose sight of it ourselves.

 

[4Times]

When I see some Tamil faces in the climbing body count of Canadian soldiers I'll warm up to them a bit more. Until then they are beneficiaries of a great country and show little respect to the builders of this great country.

 

[oldjones]

When I see some Tamil faces in the climbing body count of Canadian soldiers I'll warm up to them a bit more. Until then they are beneficiaries of a great country and show little respect to the builders of this great country.

Not at all, they've just shown a pragmatic disregard for some traffic laws. I don't recall the part where John A. prohibited foot traffic on the public roads as akin to treason or disloyalty.

And I believe "the builders of this great country" rather frowned on the idea that you can judge people by skin colour and appearance. At least go by the Tamil-sounding names, although you could misjudge that way too.

 

[Twister]

Next post

 

[Twister]

On todays Star:

Why all the fuss over Tamil street protests?

May 21, 2009 04:30 AM

Haroon Siddiqui

We want Tamil Canadians, and other minorities, to "be Canadian." Yet when they act Canadian and exercise their Charter right to peaceful protest, we call them "Tamils," the very identity we do not want them to revert to exclusively.

For their recent protests, Tamil Canadians have been derided for causing traffic disruptions and adding to policing costs.

Odd, given that we are inconvenienced all the time – by hockey, baseball, basketball and soccer games, every week; marathons, walkathons and street festivals, in the summer; the Santa Claus, Caribana and Pride parades, plus the CNE and the Royal Winter Fair, once a year.

We take pride in Toronto being a city of public events. They all require extra policing, paid from a special $35 million allocation in the $850 million a year police budget.

Even legal labour strikes cause disruptions. They are meant to. The 84-day strike at York University disrupted 50,000 students, and cost them a lot of their summer earnings.

Protests, too, we have aplenty. Not just at G8 and other summits, or peace rallies. There are regular demonstrations at the U.S. embassy in Ottawa and the consulate in Toronto. There's nary a suggestion that the policing bill be sent to Washington.

We also don't complain about the costs of policing the Toronto entertainment district Friday, Saturday and Sunday nights all year round.

At peak times, up to 30,000 people gather there. Many get drunk or come drunk in their cars or limos from the suburbs. The bars/clubs have their own security. But up to 100 police officers – on foot, bikes, horses and in cruisers – are there to prevent violence, break up fights and maintain order.

They do so with a soft touch.

At the end of the long night, they move the crowds onto the roads and hasten them along to parking lots, taxi stands, streetcars and subway stations.

The Toronto Police Services Board proposed a tax levy on the businesses there to recover the costs.

But city lawyers said, rightly, that under the Police Services Act, the municipality is responsible for providing adequate and effective policing, period. That was that.

Why, then, the fuss over Tamil Canadians? Because they broke the law, it's said. But they didn't break the law any more than truckers, farmers or aboriginals blocking highways, roads and trains.

Tamil Canadian rallies were peaceful and orderly, except for the one-time takeover of the Gardiner. No riots. No injuries.

Yet the Ottawa Police Services Board sent a bill of $900,000 to the federal government for policing Tamil Canadian protests over two weeks, leading up to an April 14 rally on Parliament Hill.

It turns out that the bill isn't really a bill. It may just be a reminder to John Baird, the Ottawa area Conservative minister, to come through on his election promise of $2 million a year for the political and diplomatic policing costs unique to the capital.

Toronto Police Chief Bill Blair represents the new breed of highly educated and trained leaders who use their heads to resolve issues, not batons. We should be proud of the way our police force managed the recent protests.

The Tamil Canadian issue is clouded by the very apt terrorist designation given the ruthless and totalitarian Tamil Tigers. But it helps to remember that Tamil Canadians are not Tamil Tigers. Those who are, are charged. Sympathy does not equal criminality.

This the Sri Lankan consul-general in Toronto, Bandula Jayasekara, does not understand. His assertion that Canada is "a haven for foreign terrorist groups" is an unsubstantiated, unacceptable interference in our domestic affairs. We don't run Canada by Sri Lankan standards

 

[rama putri]

Haroon's misguided. We do complain about many of the other 'protests and events' that he mentions. Plus for him to equate the Tamil protest to "hockey, baseball, basketball and soccer games, every week; marathons, walkathons and street festivals, in the summer; the Santa Claus, Caribana and Pride parades, plus the CNE and the Royal Winter Fair" is stretching his credibility. Or is he suggesting that a Tamil protest become a tourist attraction / entertainment on a regular basis. He's failed to convince anyone with such weak arguments.

 

[4Times]

Not at all, they've just shown a pragmatic disregard for some traffic laws. I don't recall the part where John A. prohibited foot traffic on the public roads as akin to treason or disloyalty.

And I believe "the builders of this great country" rather frowned on the idea that you can judge people by skin colour and appearance. At least go by the Tamil-sounding names, although you could misjudge that way too.

I don't give a shit what color a mans skin is. that is the convenient accusation of the left wing. A person is defined by his/her actions and the Tamils have recently been very bad neighbors but hey if they served our Country, say in Afghanastan, I would look at them with more respect.

 

[sibannac]

I don't give a shit what color a mans skin is. that is the convenient accusation of the left wing. A person is defined by his/her actions and the Tamils have recently been very bad neighbors but hey if they served our Country, say in Afghanastan, I would look at them with more respect.

and you know they haven't how after all 6% of the CF are visible minorities? Some how I think this is just an assumption based on your prejudices.

 

[4Times]

and you know they haven't how after all 6% of the CF are visible minorities? Some how I think this is just an assumption based on your prejudices.

So easy to throw the prejudice card isn't it. So enlighten me, how many Tamils serve their country in the military. And 6% of the CF being visible minorities sounds like a terrible stat.

 

[oldjones]

I don't give a shit what color a mans skin is. that is the convenient accusation of the left wing. A person is defined by his/her actions and the Tamils have recently been very bad neighbors but hey if they served our Country, say in Afghanastan, I would look at them with more respect.

Maybe you do, but what you said was you'd judge by how they looked. You can do better if you want to live up to what you said. And lumping people into a stereotypical "left wing" is the same sort of prejudice as racism. It's beneath anyone who claims to think.

 

[snowleopard]

So easy to throw the prejudice card isn't it. So enlighten me, how many Tamils serve their country in the military. And 6% of the CF being visible minorities sounds like a terrible stat.

It's true: visible minorities are relatively invisible in the CF, compared to the civilian working population where they constitute almost 20%. No doubt there are complicated reasons for this under-representation, other than just a lack of patriotic fervor, not the least of which might be the persistent, systemic presence of prejudicial attitudes that have pervaded the CF in the past. For example, visible minorities were not even accepted in the CF at the start of WW1. It was only when they became desperate for recruits that the policy was reluctantly changed. As for the Gay population, they were not acceptable even as late as 1992. And although the CF understandably denies it, there is significant evidence that racism and homophobia is still a serious problem within the ranks. However, to their credit, the military is indeed trying to correct the imbalance by actively targeting visible minorities for recruitment. Hopefully these issues will eventually be overcome.

Apparently, this under-representation is a worrisome stat for some members of our minority communities, as well. Here's an editorial from the 'The Asia Pacific Post' you might be interested in.

http://www.asianpacificpost.com/por...c44e740011_Editorial__Canadian_Forces.do.html

 

[4Times]

Maybe you do, but what you said was you'd judge by how they looked. You can do better if you want to live up to what you said. And lumping people into a stereotypical "left wing" is the same sort of prejudice as racism. It's beneath anyone who claims to think.

I didn't say I would judge anybody by how they looked. I said when I saw Tamils in the body counts of Canadian soldiers serving our country I would have more respect. I then said I didn't give a shit what color a man's skin is but its a mans actions that defines him and that Tamils have recently been bad neighbors. So Oldjones, don't make me repeat myself again. Read carefully and try to comprehend. You don't know anything about my own skin color. It would surprise you so save your left wing labelling tactics racist rhetoric.

 

[someone]

I always find it amusing when people who know absolutely nothing about the military make posts advertising their ignorance.

It's true: visible minorities are relatively invisible in the CF, compared to the civilian working population where they constitute almost 20%. No doubt there are complicated reasons for this under-representation, other than just a lack of patriotic fervor,

Actually, if one controls for only minorities that are citizens and controls for where they live, the numbers would be much closer. The regular forces get a disproportionate number of their personal from the Atlantic Canada and rural areas were you get few minorities (believe it or not, Toronto is not synonymous with Canada). In addition, unlike the U.S., citizenship is a requirement. Controlling for the number of personal they get from Toronto and other large urban centers, I doubt if the numbers are that disproportionate, at least when it come to blacks. Reserve units tend to reflect their local populations.

not the least of which might be the persistent, systemic presence of prejudicial attitudes that have pervaded the CF in the past. For example, visible minorities were not even accepted in the CF at the start of WW1.

If you are going to go back 90 years, you might want to check what the society it reflected at the time was like.

And although the CF understandably denies it, there is significant evidence that racism and homophobia is still a serious problem within the ranks.

Of course you have no evidence of any more racism in the ranks than the general population.

Odd, given that we are inconvenienced all the time – by hockey, baseball, basketball and soccer games, every week; marathons, walkathons and street festivals, in the summer; the Santa Claus, Caribana and Pride parades, plus the CNE and the Royal Winter Fair, once a year.

As much of a hassle those things can be, you are least get some warning and they do go through channels to be permits.

We take pride in Toronto being a city of public events. They all require extra policing, paid from a special $35 million allocation in the $850 million a year police budget.

Although I am sceptical of arguments justifying these expenditures in terms of tourist dollars generated, at least it is possible to make the arguments.

Even legal labour strikes cause disruptions. They are meant to. The 84-day strike at York University disrupted 50,000 students, and cost them a lot of their summer earnings.

I get very pissed off when strikers break the law and try to impede people going about their normal business with a firm facing a strike. I completely agree that this should not be allowed.

Protests, too, we have aplenty. Not just at G8 and other summits, or peace rallies. There are regular demonstrations at the U.S. embassy in Ottawa and the consulate in Toronto. There's nary a suggestion that the policing bill be sent to Washington.

Actually when they disrupt things I do get pissed off. When they just carry signs are Queen’s park, etc. I could care less. However, when you have those antiglobalization idiots rioting, I think they should face penalities. However, it would make no sense sending a bill to Washington as they are not responible for the protesters. Just sentence those who break the law to a few days and jail and you will find less that such behaviour in the future.

We also don't complain about the costs of policing the Toronto entertainment district Friday, Saturday and Sunday nights all year round.

But there is a least some economic benefit in these cases.

At peak times, up to 30,000 people gather there. Many get drunk or come drunk in their cars or limos from the suburbs. The bars/clubs have their own security. But up to 100 police officers – on foot, bikes, horses and in cruisers – are there to prevent violence, break up fights and maintain order.

But there is a least some economic benefit in these cases. That being side, by all means charge people when they break the law.

The Toronto Police Services Board proposed a tax levy on the businesses there to recover the costs. .

Might be an idea to consider.

 

[Rockslinger]

I haven't voted yet because I don't know if Tamils are real Canadians. Can't decide. They send mixed messages. I don't even know if they are real Sri Lankans. I do know that Tamils are real Tamils though. That much I am sure.

 

[snowleopard]

Of course you have not evidence of any racism in the ranks.

I fully admit that I have no personal experience, but I have heard anecdotal evidence from a family member who was a member of the CF, who related stories of overt racism and homophobia -- which I have no reason not to believe, as he harbours no animosity towards the CF. It was just a reality that he learned to live with. I don't think that it's any great revelation that there might be racism in the military, just as there is in all aspects of society. As you yourself point out, a disproportionate number of recruits come from small rural communities, where there are significantly fewer visible minorities. As I've lived in such insular communities, it has also been my experience that, because of the lack of exposure to peoples of different race and culture, racist attitudes tend to me somewhat more prevalent in rural communities. So does it not stand to reason that the military population would reflect that? Doesn't make them bad ... just makes them human.

 

[oldjones]

When I see some Tamil faces in the climbing body count … etc.

That'd be judging ethnicity/race/loyalty of a whole group by the outward appearance of some. If you don't do that you should express yourself with greater precision. I just know what I read.

I guess you'd count the disproprtionately low enlistment rates of middle-class whites in the US forces as evidence that they're not 'real' Americans, while Hispanics and African-Americans are. As for the Canadian forces, you're the one asserting those un-Canadian Tamils don't enlist. Back it up. Or do you expect us to accept that you 'just know' they don't, the same way you'll 'just know' when you see them among the fallen.

And let's not discuss the possibility that Afghanistan has degenerated into a sizable botch, and lots of 'real' Canadians of all ethnicities and politics, including the government, are just itching to see the mission end. By the way, surprise me and tell me of your service there.

 

[Rockslinger]

Afghanistan has degenerated into a sizable botch, and lots of 'real' Canadians of all ethnicities and politics, including the government, are just itching to see the mission end.

Lesson learned and that is why we are not in Sri Lanka, Darfur, Somalia, etc.
The Taliban have always said that they are interested in subjugating only Afghans so why should we be concerned whether Afghan girls go to school or not?

On a related note the Supreme Court of Canada has declined (thanks but no thanks) to listen to some LLL group arguing that the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedom also apply to Afghans (because we have some soldiers stationed in that country).

 

[Aardvark154]

Unlike the U.S., citizenship is a requirement [to be a member of the CAF]. The regular forces get a disproportionate number of their personal from the Atlantic Canada and rural areas were you get few minorities (believe it or not, Toronto is not synonymous with Canada).

The Citizenship requirement is of course a full stop.

But one wonders would Canada even consider the U.S. provision of serve a certain number of years in the ranks and be elligable for early Naturalization and if qualified a Commission?

For those (roughly anyone born after 1946) whose lives have been shaded one way or the other by the U.S. involvment in Viet Nam, it seems another world entirely, that during the first half of the twentieth century that U.S. Citizens came to Canada to join the Forces.

It indeed is a very limited cohort, but in a number of border areas I believe the government might be quite surprised if they implemented such a program for the reserve force.

 

[Aardvark154]

Afghanistan has degenerated into a sizable botch, and lots of 'real' Canadians of all ethnicities and politics, including the government, are just itching to see the mission end.

For the sake of consistancy one presumes then that you feel that Canada should not commit any military forces to Darfur and that the Janjaweed can do what so ever they please there?

By extension then is it correct that nothing save a direct attack on Canada is worth Canadian Forces being committed?

 

[Rockslinger]

By extension then is it correct that nothing save a direct attack on Canada is worth Canadian Forces being committed?

With the LLL, not even a direct attack on Canada is worth preventing, especially if it means "torturing" or hurting a terrorist.