Apartheid analogy common among Israel's left

[groggy]

Keep flailing and squirming, it is hilarious how hard you are trying to change the topic to Israel. Answer the question:

So you are denying that Palestinians are a race? And you think that systemic cradle to grave discrimination against them is OK, because they are not a race?

You are the one trying to argue that the PLO is apartheid, instituting a racist policy against Palestinians.
Even Pamella Geller or Donald Sterling wouldn't try such a ridiculously stupid argument.

And you are the one that's off topic here, this thread is about real apartheid policies in Israel.

Just for fun, I challenge you to find one paper backing your ridiculous claim, and as backing for my challenge I'll start with an easy one for you.
Here's a report by South African's, the real experts on Apartheid, on whether Israel practices Apartheid and Colonialism.
Their findings?

Israel is guilty as fuck.

http://www.alhaq.org/attachments/article/236/Occupation_Colonialism_Apartheid-FullStudy.pdf

 

[fuji]

You are the one trying to argue that the PLO is apartheid, instituting a racist policy against Palestinians.

Answer the question:

So you are denying that Palestinians are a race? And you think that systemic cradle to grave discrimination against them is OK, because they are not a race?

 

[groggy]

And you think that systemic cradle to grave discrimination against them is OK

Obviously I don't think systematic racial discrimination is ok in any form.
Not by you, not by Rob Ford, Donald Sterling or Pamella Geller and most certainly not by Israeli's Apartheid policies.
Its you that's trying to change the topic by accusing Palestinians of racism against Palestinians.

And now that I've supplied a study by those who suffered Apartheid showing that the only real Apartheid policies there are those run by Israel, you just try to squirm and change the subject.

 

[fuji]

Obviously I don't think systematic racial discrimination is ok in any form.

So you are denying that Palestinians are a race? And you think that systemic cradle to grave discrimination against them is OK, because they are not a race?

Please clarify your views on the way Arabs and the PLO have practiced what very much appears to be text book apartheid. They clearly do face systemic discrimination from the day they are born until they die.

 

[groggy]

Please clarify your views on the way Arabs and the PLO have practiced what very much appears to be text book apartheid. .

Why are you such an ass that you would even try to accuse Palestinians through the PLO of racist policies against Palestinians just to avoid discussing the very clear case of real Apartheid policies of Israel?

Is this how desperate your arguments have become?

http://www.alhaq.org/attachments/article/236/Occupation_Colonialism_Apartheid-FullStudy.pdf

 

[fuji]

Why are you such an ass that you would even try to accuse Palestinians through the PLO of racist policies against Palestinians just to avoid discussing the very clear case of real Apartheid policies of Israel?

Why won't you answer the question? With every post you try and dodge answering and switch the topic away from Arab mistreatment of Palestinians.

So you are denying that Palestinians are a race?

Do you think that any of your comments on race justify the horrendous harm and discrimination the refugees have been subjected to by the PLO, PA, Lebanon, and Syria?

 

[groggy]

So you are denying that Palestinians are a race?

Do you think that any of your comments on race justify the horrendous harm and discrimination the refugees have been subjected to by the PLO, PA, Lebanon, and Syria?

At least you're backing away from your laughable Apartheid charge.
That's a start, accusing Palestinians of racism on Palestinians is about as stupid as you've gotten, and that's saying a lot.

Once we get past that, you need to answer why you don't think its important that the original victims of Apartheid have recognized Israel as Apartheid as well.

 

[fuji]

At least you're backing away from your laughable Apartheid charge.

It is clearly apartheid. Systemic discrimination by Syria and Lebanon with PLO complicity against Palestinians. They are denied status, forced to use different schools and hospitals, prevented from owning property, prevented from applying for most jobs, prevented from voting. It is systematic discrimination based on their status as Palestinians, against residents who have lived there for generations.

You are squirming and flailing because this situation reveals your monstrous hypocrisy. You want to make bullshit claims about Israel being an apartheid state when it isn't, and you examples pale in comparison to the actual, formal, undeniable literal apartheid that Arabs have inflicted on Palestinians for sixty years.

There is just no excuse for you, you are caught, your hypocrisy revealed. You don't care about Palestinians and you don't care about apartheid. You only care about hating Jews.

 

[groggy]

It is clearly apartheid. Systemic discrimination by Syria and Lebanon with PLO complicity against Palestinians. They are denied status, forced to use different schools and hospitals, prevented from owning property, prevented from applying for most jobs, prevented from voting. It is systematic discrimination based on their status as Palestinians, against residents who have lived there for generations.

You're still going with charging Palestinians with racism on Palestinians?
What an arse!

They are there in 'temporary' refugee camps, they're only waiting until Israel starts honouring international law and UN resolutions.
They are only there because of their immigration/refugee status.

Meanwhile, you're still just trying to deflect from answering to Apartheid victims identifying Israeli policies as full on Apartheid.

http://www.alhaq.org/attachments/article/236/Occupation_Colonialism_Apartheid-FullStudy.pdf


You can only dig your head in the sand for so long.

 

[highpark]

As a recovering observant Jew who now sees all humans as members of one species it seems so odd to watch you all battling over which myths and which tribe is correct. How tribal. Y don't we have a terb israel vs Palestine party where we can all bring weapons and Duke it out.
The Israelis don't want peace. They want land, power and influence. The Palestinians don't want peace yet. They want their country back and they want revenge.
But speaking of apartheid...... How is it possible that a European or North American jew can move to Israel and get automatic citizenship when they have no actual verifiable lineage to the country and yet an Arab who's family may actually have the deed to the land can't move to Israel, and reclaim his land. How is it possible that jews can build settlements in the west bank but Arabs can not. How is it that jews can travel freely throughout the west bank on modern paid roads but Arabs are quarantined to their villages at the whim of teenage Jewish soldiers. How is it that if a Jew in the west bank breaks the law he is protected by Israeli law and if an Arab breaks the law in the west bank he can be arrested indefinitely without protection of the law or due process. Has any one ever looked at the map of Israel since the 1948 UN vote on independence. The Jewish territory keeps getting bigger and bigger and the Arab territory is almost gone. Has anyone ever examined the casualties of the conflicts between these two tribes over the last 50 years. The Arabs suffer huge casualties as compared to the jews. And don't even get me started on the unfair advantage in weapons the jews have over the Arabs.
If u were not a member of the Jewish tribe or their allies how would any of this seem just or fare???

 

[fuji]

They are there in 'temporary' refugee camps, they're only waiting until Israel starts honouring international law and UN resolutions.

No, they are there because Syria, Lebanon, and the PA keep them there. In Jordan the Palestinians are also descended from refugees, but Jordan does not deny them status. Coincidentally, Jordan evicted the PLO.

It is the Syrians, Lebanese, and PLO who have refused to give these people citizenship in the country of their birth.

They were born in Syria and Lebanon to parents and grandparents who were born there.

It is incredible hypocrisy for you to make up nonsense claims about Israel being an apartheid state, when a Israel grants full citizenship to all Palestinians born in Israel. Meanwhile Palestinians born in Syria and Lebanon are denied citizenship there.

They are only there because of their immigration/refugee status.

Complete bullshit. They are not immigrants. THEY WERE BORN THERE.

 

[groggy]

It is incredible hypocrisy for you to make up nonsense claims about Israel being an apartheid state, when a Israel grants full citizenship to all Palestinians born in Israel. .

False, all Palestinians born under rule in Israel run and occupied West Bank and Gaza live their lives as stateless refugees, the same status that you call unfair in Syria and Lebanon.
But you don't complain about it when you do it.

Highpark put it well, as did the very thorough report by South Africans.
Israel is apartheid.

 

[fuji]

False, all Palestinians born under rule in Israel run and occupied West Bank and Gaza live their lives as stateless refugees, the same status that you call unfair in Syria and Lebanon.

Nope. There are two classes of Palestinians. Those who are born in camps , and those who a born outside the camps. Those born in the camps are denied status, prevented from accessing regular schools and hospitals, prevented from voting, prevented from holding most jobs, it is straight up, formalized apartheid.

It is not Israel that imposes this two class system, and it is not because of Israel that it exists. In Jordan the Palestinians enjoy equal status, add they should (though they face discrimination in other ways).

You can sputter, dance, try and change the topic, but your refusal to condemn this horrendous bigotry and abuse against Palestinians shows everyone your true colors.

Your ONLY interest in this conversion if to find a way to hate Israel. Every single one of your posts is an attempt to change the topic, and not one have you showed sympathy for the Palestinians, and not one have you condemned their persecution at the hands of other Arabs.

 

[groggy]

Nope. There are two classes of Palestinians. Those who are born in camps , and those who a born outside the camps. .

No, they are all stateless refugees.

Check out the star today?

Why John Kerry’s right on Israel and apartheid: Burman

Of course, John Kerry was right, and it was important that he said it. On its present course, the State of Israel runs considerable risk that it will one day become an “apartheid state.” And we know from the lessons of history how perilous that would be for the country. Anyone supportive of Israel who thinks otherwise is delusional, dishonest or wilfully blind.
...
In 2007, then-Israeli prime minister Ehud Olmert warned that “if the day comes when the two-state solution collapses, and we face a South African-style struggle for equal voting rights . . . the State of Israel is finished.” In 2010, former prime minister Ehud Barak said: “The simple truth is, if there is one state . . . if this bloc of millions of Palestinians cannot vote, that will be an apartheid state.” Last year, Justice Minister Tzipi Livni warned that, without a two-state solution, Israel could turn into an “apartheid state.”

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2014/05/03/why_john_kerrys_right_on_israel_and_apartheid_burman.html

The apartheid debate is going mainstream.
And its about time.

 

[basketcase]

Since you're so concerned about systematic cradle to grave discrimination against Palestinians, time for you to take a stand against Israel's apartheid policies.
But you're not, you're trying to a Rob Ford and pretend you're not an angry racist with a gun collection.

You say Arab discrimination against Palestinians isn't racism or apartheid because Palestinians in camps are the same race as the Lebanese, Syrians, and Palestinians not in camps.

Yet you say Israel is racist and apartheid because Palestinians in the West Bank don't have the same rights as Palestinians in Israel.

Did anyone ever accuse you of having a blatant double standard?


p.s. As you posted, former a Al-Jazeera journalist known to be opposed to Israel says:
"Kerry didn’t say that Israel is an “apartheid state,” or wishes to become one. That would be untrue."
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2...rys_right_on_israel_and_apartheid_burman.html

 

[basketcase]

False, all Palestinians born under rule in Israel run and occupied West Bank and Gaza live their lives as stateless refugees,....

Not true.

A few are refugees under UNRWA definition. Many are supported by UNRWA as descendents of refugees.
Most of the Palestinians in the West Bank are still living in their familial homes pre-dating 1967 or 1948 so can't be considered refugees.
A great many West Bank Palestinians hold Jordanian citizenship.

A decade ago you might get some traction with describing West Bank Palestinians as "Stateless" but the UN has recognized the state of Palestine so they now have a state. The only thing they don't have is complete control over their state.

 

[basketcase]

Fuji's description of the refugees being victims of Arab racism or apartheid are patently stupid but it does a good job of exposing how idiotic grogs claims are.

 

[fuji]

No, they are all stateless refugees.

You are wrong. The refugees in Jordan are not stateless. It is Syria, Lebanon, and the PA that have made the decision to deny citizenship, a decision that only they are responsible for.

In the PA there is a mix of Palestinians who have always lived there who the PA considers citizens of the State of Palestine, and people born in the West Bank and Gaza in the camps who the PA denied status to.

It is formalized apartheid based on national origin in the PA and based on race in Syria and Lebanon. Literally apartheid: restricted living areas, different residency papers, different schools and hospitals, different categories for employment purposes.

I see you agreed with Berman's article so you certainly agree with him that it is false to call Israel an apartheid state. However, it is not false to call Syria and Lebanon apartheid states, and if you dodge the label in the PA by weaseling that it isn't technically race, it is just as vicious, just as explorative, just as bigoted and just as harmful regardless of the word you use.

It is appalling what Arabs have done to the Palestinians. Absolutely appalling.

 

[fuji]

Fuji's description of the refugees being victims of Arab racism or apartheid are patently stupid but it does a good job of exposing how idiotic grogs claims are.

How is it not apartheid in, say, Lebanon? What part of the definition, legal or moral, is not met by the two tier system they have created?

Remember that we are increasingly talking about people who are third and forth generation. A Palestinian child born in Lebanon in 48 is 66 years old and likely a grandfather if not a great grandfather.

We are talking about a dual status system that has different rights and status for people who were born in a Lebanon to parents and grandparents and great grandparents who were all born in Lebanon.

The phrase apartheid isn't in common use for this case, but it fully meets the definition.

To be honest, so does the migrant worker policy in Saudi Arabia and the UAE, where you have a multi generation Filipino community that has not for status and can never get status.

 

[basketcase]

How is it not apartheid in, say, Lebanon? What part of the definition, legal or moral, is not met by the two tier system they have created?
...

Their behaviour is amoral but it is not based on race.