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Another plane goes missing

wilbur

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Jan 19, 2004
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ANd both planes didnt send out distress signal / communication ???? Something doesnt add up here , something shaddy there
If the aircraft was out of control, I can assure you that talking to someone on the ground would have been the last thing on their mind. What could someone on the ground do for them anyway? First rule is to fly the airplane. Second rule is to navigate. Third is to communicate. Probably never got to step 2 as the aircraft seemingly was out of control.

This one could be the result of flying into a thunderstorm, and they did request higher to avoid one. All kinds of nasty things can happen there: damage due to hail: shattered windshield/damaged engines/wing leading edge/radome. Extreme turbulence causing loss of control (jet upset) and engine flame out. That's why airliners are equipped with weather avoidance radar: to avoid thunderstorms.

The AF447 didn't actually fly in a thunderstorm, the pitot tubes clogged up with ice in the vicinity of a super thunderstorm cell, triggering a series of failures and alarms the flight crew was unable to cope with.
 

FAST

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Mar 12, 2004
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If the aircraft was out of control, I can assure you that talking to someone on the ground would have been the last thing on their mind. What could someone on the ground do for them anyway? First rule is to fly the airplane. Second rule is to navigate. Third is to communicate. Probably never got to step 2 as the aircraft seemingly was out of control.

This one could be the result of flying into a thunderstorm, and they did request higher to avoid one. All kinds of nasty things can happen there: damage due to hail: shattered windshield/damaged engines/wing leading edge/radome. Extreme turbulence causing loss of control (jet upset) and engine flame out. That's why airliners are equipped with weather avoidance radar: to avoid thunderstorms.

The AF447 didn't actually fly in a thunderstorm, the pitot tubes clogged up with ice in the vicinity of a super thunderstorm cell, triggering a series of failures and alarms the flight crew was unable to cope with.
As to AF447, the "failure" was that the plane did not have an ANGLE OF ATTACK display, so once all the fancy control systems failed, and since when they were flying through clouds,...couldn't see the horizon,...they were "blind".
Apparently the plane stalled and pancaked into the ocean, if the pilots had an ANGLE OF ATTACK display, they might have had a chance.
That plane doesn't even have a proper control stick in front of the pilots, as similar Boeing aircraft do,...just some joy stickers off in the corner.
Big law suits going on in Europe.

This one that crashed, is similar.

No expert here, just reporting what I read.

FAST
 

twir

Member
Sep 19, 2004
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My understanding is that, as in AF447, this plane does NOT have an angle of attack indicator for the pilots,...makes it kinda hard to fly in storms, especially if the air speed tubes are blocked with ice.

FAST
Those french pilots just panicked and did not know how to use the alternative tools at their disposal.

They train you for iced pitot tubes in the simulator. The GPS speed and altitudes indicator is still functional and completely
independent from the pitot tubes. When everything fails, you should use the GPS speed indicator. It also gives you your altitude.
The standby gyro will give you your attitude.

Way too many pilots have poor airmanship skills and just rely on computer.
They have to go back to basic and learn how to stick fly the plane.
 

wilbur

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Jan 19, 2004
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As to AF447, the "failure" was that the plane did not have an ANGLE OF ATTACK display, so once all the fancy control systems failed, and since when they were flying through clouds,...couldn't see the horizon,...they were "blind".
Apparently the plane stalled and pancaked into the ocean, if the pilots had an ANGLE OF ATTACK display, they might have had a chance.
That plane doesn't even have a proper control stick in front of the pilots, as similar Boeing aircraft do,...just some joy stickers off in the corner.
Big law suits going on in Europe.

This one that crashed, is similar.

No expert here, just reporting what I read.

FAST
Few civil aircraft actually have an angle of attack indicator; typically only those with a T-Tail. There are angle of attack probes installed on Airbus, but they are used internally by the flight control system.

That they were flying through cloud at night and could not see the horizon was just one of many factors. The attitude indicators did not fail, however, and they should have referenced themselves to those; but they did not believe them (one each on the 2 Primary Flight Displays and one stand-alone standby AI) , because of the disorientation due to the multitude of audio and visual warnings of system failures and backup reversions generated as a result of the pitot probes icing up.

The amount of 'bells and whistles' caused by the resulting system failures and reversion to backup modes overwhelmed and disoriented the relatively inexperienced pilot flying. So it's questionable whether this pilot, nor the more experienced non-flying pilot, would have paid any attention to an angle of attack indicator anyway. For example, the GPS/IRU generated ground speed is continuously displayed on the navigation display, and if he was afraid of overspeeding (hence pulling up), it would have been apparent that they were not.

All they had to do, according to procedure, was to maintain 3-5 degrees positive pitch, and set 85% thrust on the N1 (fan speed), until they few out of cloud. Instead, the pilot flying pulled back, ostensibly thinking that the stall protection inherent in the Airbus design would save them. Apart from zooming the aircraft to an altitude that was unsustainable for flight, the automated flight control system reverted to it's next backup mode and could not provide the stall protection. The flight control stick design does not provide feedback of the pilot flying's inputs to the other pilot's stick, so the other pilot was unaware that the pilot flying was continuously pulling on his stick and keeping the aircraft stalled. The pilot not flying did not assert himself as pilot-in-charge sufficiently by taking over control, even though he started clueing in on what the problem was.

The fundamental cause was the failure of Air France to provide training for cruise altitude loss of airspeed indication. The procedure contains memory items, plus not having actually experienced it in the simulator, they were not prepared for the actual event. Contrary to most post accident back-seat afterthoughts by laypersons, it's not as simple as a single instrument.

I would be surprized if the cause of this latest crash is the same as the AF447 one. The faulty design pitot tubes should all have been replaced by now. It's most likely that, in the vicinity of thunderstorms, after requesting an altitude change to get above one (which was denied) instead of requesting a lateral deviation, they actually flew into one that resulted in a jet upset. Thunderstorm lines can rapidly develop, making it impossible to turn around if leaving the decision too late.

This person has over 4000 hours on the A320.
 

FAST

Banned
Mar 12, 2004
10,063
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Those french pilots just panicked and did not know how to use the alternative tools at their disposal.

They train you for iced pitot tubes in the simulator. The GPS speed and altitudes indicator is still functional and completely
independent from the pitot tubes. When everything fails, you should use the GPS speed indicator. It also gives you your altitude.
The standby gyro will give you your attitude.

Way too many pilots have poor airmanship skills and just rely on computer.
They have to go back to basic and learn how to stick fly the plane.
Altitude is meaningless, if you don't know what the angle of attack is,...THAT is what determines if a plane is going generate lift, or stall.

I can't comment on the skill of the French pilots, but just for some info, Google the flight deck of that Air Bus, and you judge if the pilots were considered when they designed the controls for pilots.

FAST
 

FAST

Banned
Mar 12, 2004
10,063
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Few civil aircraft actually have an angle of attack indicator; typically only those with a T-Tail. There are angle of attack probes installed on Airbus, but they are used internally by the flight control system.

That they were flying through cloud at night and could not see the horizon was just one of many factors. The attitude indicators did not fail, however, and they should have referenced themselves to those; but they did not believe them (one each on the 2 Primary Flight Displays and one stand-alone standby AI) , because of the disorientation due to the multitude of audio and visual warnings of system failures and backup reversions generated as a result of the pitot probes icing up.

The amount of 'bells and whistles' caused by the resulting system failures and reversion to backup modes overwhelmed and disoriented the relatively inexperienced pilot flying. So it's questionable whether this pilot, nor the more experienced non-flying pilot, would have paid any attention to an angle of attack indicator anyway. For example, the GPS/IRU generated ground speed is continuously displayed on the navigation display, and if he was afraid of overspeeding (hence pulling up), it would have been apparent that they were not.

All they had to do, according to procedure, was to maintain 3-5 degrees positive pitch, and set 85% thrust on the N1 (fan speed), until they few out of cloud. Instead, the pilot flying pulled back, ostensibly thinking that the stall protection inherent in the Airbus design would save them. Apart from zooming the aircraft to an altitude that was unsustainable for flight, the automated flight control system reverted to it's next backup mode and could not provide the stall protection. The flight control stick design does not provide feedback of the pilot flying's inputs to the other pilot's stick, so the other pilot was unaware that the pilot flying was continuously pulling on his stick and keeping the aircraft stalled. The pilot not flying did not assert himself as pilot-in-charge sufficiently by taking over control, even though he started clueing in on what the problem was.

The fundamental cause was the failure of Air France to provide training for cruise altitude loss of airspeed indication. The procedure contains memory items, plus not having actually experienced it in the simulator, they were not prepared for the actual event. Contrary to most post accident back-seat afterthoughts by laypersons, it's not as simple as a single instrument.

I would be surprized if the cause of this latest crash is the same as the AF447 one. The faulty design pitot tubes should all have been replaced by now. It's most likely that, in the vicinity of thunderstorms, after requesting an altitude change to get above one (which was denied) instead of requesting a lateral deviation, they actually flew into one that resulted in a jet upset. Thunderstorm lines can rapidly develop, making it impossible to turn around if leaving the decision too late.

This person has over 4000 hours on the A320.
YA,...I remember reading that, and I bow to your status.
But just repeating what I read as to the lack of "angle of attack" indicator being one of the issues presented by an American pilot when commenting on that crash.

What do you think of the little "joy stick" in the corner ?

FAST
 

wilbur

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Jan 19, 2004
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YA,...I remember reading that, and I bow to your status.
But just repeating what I read as to the lack of "angle of attack" indicator being one of the issues presented by an American pilot when commenting on that crash.

What do you think of the little "joy stick" in the corner ?

FAST
Be wary of talking heads on TV, and their so-called experts.

They are actually thinking of incorporating AoA indication on the PFD, perhaps when in Alternate [flight control] Law (that does not provide stall protection, as opposed to Normal Law that does). Loss of airspeed input is a major systems failure, forcing reversion to Alternate [flight control] Law). It's of little use in Normal Law, since the aircraft usually manages its own speed (unless overridden by the pilot) and provides stall protection, called Alpha Protect/Alpha Floor).

I think that the flight control stick was a 'neat idea', as conceived by French engineers. But its drawback is that there is no tactile feedback to the other pilot, except for moving crosshairs on the PFD. It warranted the creation of a complicated override protocol in case the other pilot needs to take over control. The only positive thing I can think of about it is that you can eat your meal, or do your paperwork on a nice foldable table, unencumbered by a control column. Frankly, having a conventional control wheel has more positive benefits than not having to pull back your seat in order to eat your meal. Other than that, even though the latest Boeings have a conventional control wheel, they are both fly-by-wire, without the traditional control cables, bellcranks and pushrods.
 
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FAST

Banned
Mar 12, 2004
10,063
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Be wary of talking heads on TV, and their so-called experts.

They are actually thinking of incorporating AoA indication on the PFD, perhaps when in Alternate [flight control] Law (that does not provide stall protection, as opposed to Normal Law that does). Loss of airspeed indication is a major systems failure, forcing reversion to Alternate [flight control] Law). It's of little use in Normal Law, since the aircraft usually manages its own speed (unless overridden by the pilot) and provides stall protection, called Alpha Protect/Alpha Floor).

I think that the flight control stick was a 'neat idea', as conceived by French engineers. But its drawback is that there is no tactile feedback to the other pilot, except for moving crosshairs on the PFD. It warranted the creation of a complicated override protocol in case the other pilot needs to take over control. The only positive thing I can think of about it is that you can eat your meal, or do your paperwork on a nice foldable table, unencumbered by a control column. Frankly, having a conventional control wheel has more positive benefits than not having to pull back your seat in order to eat your meal. Other than that, even though the latest Boeings have a conventional control wheel, they are both fly-by-wire, without the traditional control cables, bellcranks and pushrods.
Thanks, a real interesting read.

Cars have had throttle by wire for years now, and the new Infinity Q50, can be had with steer by wire, with tactile feed back, does the Boeing control wheel have any feed back?

FAST
 

wilbur

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Jan 19, 2004
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Thanks, a real interesting read.

Cars have had throttle by wire for years now, and the new Infinity Q50, can be had with steer by wire, with tactile feed back, does the Boeing control wheel have any feed back?

FAST
Boeings have artificial feel. When it's not in trim, you have to apply pressure. So it feels like a conventional airplane. The Airbus, at least in Normal and Alternate Law, is always in trim; the stick is spring loaded to neutral, just like your toy computer joystick. Basically, when you hand fly the Airbus, you're manually controlling the autopilot with the stick in what was once called 'control wheel steering'. You point it in a certain attitude and if you let go, it remains in that attitude. If you bank more than 33 degrees and let go, it will return to 33 degrees.
 

fuji

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It's most likely that, in the vicinity of thunderstorms, after requesting an altitude change to get above one (which was denied) instead of requesting a lateral deviation, they actually flew into one that resulted in a jet upset.
The only data point we have right now is radar that indicates that they were climbing before they disappeared, and not travelling at the speed they should have been. That indicates a stall. But it's limited data and until the black box is found we won't know.
 

wilbur

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The only data point we have right now is radar that indicates that they were climbing before they disappeared, and not travelling at the speed they should have been. That indicates a stall. But it's limited data and until the black box is found we won't know.
They wouldn't be climbing if they had stalled. Also, the ground speed wasn't so low. It was around 320 knots and depending on altitude, wasn't really near the stall speed. On an airbus, a stall indicates system failures since in normal circumstances, the aircraft has stall protection.

There was apparently a rapid climb, and that implies a violent updraft in a thunderstorm cell. Turbulence can be so violent inside a thunderstorm cell that it's impossible to read the instruments, and you better have your shoulder harness on because you can actually hit your head on the side window, depending on the aircraft. But a great danger flying in a thunderstorm is damage caused by hail. At altitude, hailstones can be as big as basketballs, but certainly the size of baseballs. That can damage the engines, leading edges of the wings, shatter windshields as well as shatter the radome, causing erroneous speed indications.

They were apparently in the process of avoiding thunderstorms, and the fact that they wanted climb after having asked for a lateral deviation implies that there was still something in front of them, or near enough to their path that they couldn't fly around. Problem is that tropical thunderstorms can easily reach over 50,000 feet, and far exceed the service ceiling of the A320 of 39,000 feet. They asked for climb from 32,000 to 38,000 feet, but only got approved to 34,000 feet due to conflicting traffic. By the time local ATC got back to them, due to coordination with the next sector, and cleared them to climb, contact was lost.
 

Yoga Face

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GameBoy27

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Why do they not install additional recorders that break off the wing and float

Why is not this info not streamed live to earth stations making recorders redundant
Nothing happens quickly in the airline industry so it will take a while before new systems as abv mentioned are implemented. It also comes down to cost. Thankfully airliners don't crash very often. Considering there's in the range of 24 million departures annually, it's still a very safe way to travel.
 
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