All prostitution = violence against women

[mandrill]

I appreciate you contributing to the thread, Gen. My own last 1st person contact with academe was a part-time instructor in the early 90's and the rad fem clique certainly seemed to have a big impact on Osgoode Hall Law School. (OTOH, law schools especially attract loonie intellectuals as any academically well-qualified law grad could be making a fortune on Bay Street, instead of an academic's salary at York, unless very difficult to deal with.)

So what happened to the rad fem academics? Did they adapt to avoid intellectual marginalization?

Oh and Malarek? I don't think any of the guys on the board have ever bothered to look at his photo.

 

[genintoronto]

So what happened to the rad fem academics? Did they adapt to avoid intellectual marginalization?

Most people in academia don't tend to "adapt" (ie, change their intellectual position) as most have too much invested in their position. But that's another debate for another time.

So, what happened to rad fem? They are still around, although not the dominant feminist theoretical/philosophical approach as they once were. There are many explanations for that (depending on your own theoretical positions), but I would suggest it has a lot to do with internal critiques (from other feminists, many coming from a non-white, non-western, and outsiders perspective) which have opened up space to voice other feminist approaches. This change should also be contextualized within the larger North American academic environement of the late 90', when most dominant positivist philosophical traditions in the social sciences and humanities have been challenged by the importation, translation and appropriation by North American scholars of postmoderm/poststructuralist critiques of positivism and meta-narratives (such as radical feminism).

 

[JohnnyCum_Lately]

Most people in academia don't tend to "adapt" (ie, change their intellectual position) as most have too much invested in their position. But that's another debate for another time.

So, what happened to rad fem? They are still around, although not the dominant feminist theoretical/philosophical approach as they once were. There are many explanations for that (depending on your own theoretical positions), but I would suggest it has a lot to do with internal critiques (from other feminists, many coming from a non-white, non-western, and outsiders perspective) which have opened up space to voice other feminist approaches. This change should also be contextualized within the larger North American academic environement of the late 90', when most dominant positivist philosophical traditions in the social sciences and humanities have been challenged by the importation, translation and appropriation by North American scholars of postmoderm/poststructuralist critiques of positivism and meta-narratives (such as radical feminism).

Oh God... a sex machine and intelligent! I'm in love!!

 

[Karink]

MM I agree with you very much so. I have never once felt "raped" I actually enjoy going to work when I work. Sometimes I even look forward to the fact that I have a line up of men ready, waiting and wanting to pay to please ME. Maybe I just have some of the best clients but my ego/confidence has never been bigger neither has my wallett. And we do from time to time like some clients and start friendships and great sexual relationships. Just dont tell the agency when we like u

 

[dahlia dawn]

MM I agree with you very much so. I have never once felt "raped" I actually enjoy going to work when I work. Sometimes I even look forward to the fact that I have a line up of men ready, waiting and wanting to pay to please ME. Maybe I just have some of the best clients but my ego/confidence has never been bigger neither has my wallett. And we do from time to time like some clients and start friendships and great sexual relationships. Just dont tell the agency when we like u

wow it's like you just read a page out of my brain, right inside my head.

 

[happy the man]

when most dominant positivist philosophical traditions in the social sciences and humanities have been challenged by the importation, translation and appropriation by North American scholars of postmoderm/poststructuralist critiques of positivism and meta-narratives (such as radical feminism).

HOLY FUCK! You lost me at "...change should also be contextualized within the larger North American academic environement of the late 90".

I guess we better steer clear of that topic. How about those Leafs...

 

[mandrill]

This change should also be contextualized within the larger North American academic environement of the late 90', when most dominant positivist philosophical traditions in the social sciences and humanities have been challenged by the importation, translation and appropriation by North American scholars of postmoderm/poststructuralist critiques of positivism and meta-narratives (such as radical feminism).

LOL. This reminds me of the last time I tried to keep up with my little sister, who is a college professor and my eldest niece who is taking a PhD in English Lit and I failed to understand 60% of the jargon! (OTOH, I bet they have no idea what a "Mareva Injunction" is either!)

What is a post-structuralist critique of a meta-narrative?

 

[wet_suit_one]

LOL. This reminds me of the last time I tried to keep up with my little sister, who is a college professor and my eldest niece who is taking a PhD in English Lit and I failed to understand 60% of the jargon! (OTOH, I bet they have no idea what a "Mareva Injunction" is either!)

What is a post-structuralist critique of a meta-narrative?

I see that a learned friend is in the house.

 

[Possum Trot]

LOL. This reminds me of the last time I tried to keep up with my little sister, who is a college professor and my eldest niece who is taking a PhD in English Lit and I failed to understand 60% of the jargon! (OTOH, I bet they have no idea what a "Mareva Injunction" is either!)

What is a post-structuralist critique of a meta-narrative?

I had the same question as you. I think she was just taking the intellect out for a walk and forgot what neighbourhood she was was in. Either that or she was just fucking with us because she can

 

[simply_suave]

I had the same question as you. I think she was just taking the intellect out for a walk and forgot what neighbourhood she was was in. Either that or she was just fucking with us because she can

Prostitution is great and should be legalized. That way the violence against women part will be minimized.

 

[genintoronto]

HOLY FUCK! You lost me at "...change should also be contextualized within the larger North American academic environement of the late 90".

I guess we better steer clear of that topic. How about those Leafs...

LOL. This reminds me of the last time I tried to keep up with my little sister, who is a college professor and my eldest niece who is taking a PhD in English Lit and I failed to understand 60% of the jargon! (OTOH, I bet they have no idea what a "Mareva Injunction" is either!)

What is a post-structuralist critique of a meta-narrative?

I had the same question as you. I think she was just taking the intellect out for a walk and forgot what neighbourhood she was was in. Either that or she was just fucking with us because she can

Heh heh. I think it has more to do with my inability to converse in normal English when discussing academe.

Check out this wiki link on meta-narrative: still a bit jargony, but I think a relatively good and clear summary of the post-structuralist/post-modern critiques of meta-narratives.

As a totalizing and reductionist theory that purports to objectively and comprehensively explain the world and everyone's experience of it at any given point in time and space, Radical Feminism can be categorized as a "meta-narrative".

And in a way, the critiques that most people here have directed at Rad Fem interpretation of prostitution is in line with the post-modern critique of meta-narrative: ie, the Rad Fem interpretation doesn't account for my and others' diverging experience of prostitution. Which is not to say that the Rad Fem account is completly wrong or untrue. For many women involved in the sex trade, prostitution IS violence. But as a totalizing theory, Rad Fem account of prostitution doesn't allow for my or others' diverging experience of prostitution: women who claim to be doing sex work by choice are either in a state of "false consciousness" (ie, suffering from the equivalent of the abused women syndrome), or have been victim of so much abuse and violence that they perceive it as being normal.

ps: what's a Mareva Injunction?

 

[mandrill]

ps: what's a Mareva Injunction?

It's an order made by a Superior Court judge that freezes the assets of a defendant who has been accused of fraud or other misconduct in a civil lawsuit, if there is compelling evidence that this defendant is about to move those assets outside the territorial jurisdiction of the court in question in order to evade the plaintiff's claim.

It's a lot simpler to understand than Meta-narrative, when you explain it.

 

[mandrill]

And in a way, the critiques that most people here have directed at Rad Fem interpretation of prostitution is in line with the post-modern critique of meta-narrative: ie, the Rad Fem interpretation doesn't account for my and others' diverging experience of prostitution. Which is not to say that the Rad Fem account is completely wrong or untrue. For many women involved in the sex trade, prostitution IS violence. But as a totalizing theory, Rad Fem account of prostitution doesn't allow for my or others' diverging experience of prostitution: women who claim to be doing sex work by choice are either in a state of "false consciousness" (ie, suffering from the equivalent of the abused women syndrome), or have been victim of so much abuse and violence that they perceive it as being normal.

But the whole argument is absurdly bootstrapped.

To assume that women are in a state of false consciousness when they volunteer for sex work, one would also have to assume that all such women have been heavily abused and there is simply no evidence that this might be the case.

The fact that some women involved in prostitution experience violence has little to do with the nature of women, men or prostitution itself and everything to do with the fact that women's bodies are saleable assets and there are always going to be individuals who attempt to reap the benefit of assets of whatever kind regardless of the wishes of the others involved in the transaction. Most pimps would be just as happy dealing crack or pulling a scam of some sort.

 

[genintoronto]

But the whole argument is absurdly bootstrapped.

To assume that women are in a state of false consciousness when they volunteer for sex work, one would also have to assume that all such women have been heavily abused and there is simply no evidence that this might be the case.

Not exactly.

False consciousness is a concept that Rad Fem borrows from Marxism, which is linked to the notion of ideology. According to Marxism and Radical Feminism, our current historical structure of power (defined respectively as capitalism by Marxist and patriarchal by Rad Fem) is made possible by and maintained through both coercion (violence and/or the threat of) and consent.

Consent is produced through the power of ideology, ie, a set of beliefs and ideas which transform a particular historical structure of power (such as unequal class or gender relations) as the necessary order of nature ("this is how it's always been", "there will always be winners and losers", "men are naturally violent and sexual, women are naturally nurturing and emotional", etc.) and the interests of one dominant class (the bourgeoisie for Marxist, men for Rad Fem) into the interests of its subordinate classes (for instance, the idea that workers who took a cut on their paycheck during the last couple years should consider themselve "lucky" because they still have a job, without questioning the fact that being able to provide for one's family should not be considered a privilege, or that those on top of the social pyramid are still making indecent profits that could be otherwise redistributed to pay the workers fairly).

In the case of prostitution, Rad Fem make the circular argument that women cannot freely choose to do sex work, as all sex work is violence and exploitative, and one can't choose to be abused and exploited. Those who claim to be doing sex work by choice are therefore "false conscious", ie, mistaking the interests of the male-class and The Patriarchy (in this case the objectification and commodification of women's bodies and sexuality) for their own.

 

[mandrill]

Okay, got it. It's internally logical, if circular. But it's so extreme and ideologically rigid and absolute that it runs counter to anything that anyone on this board would ever remotely agree with.

 

[Aardvark154]

Heh heh. I think it has more to do with my inability to converse in normal English when discussing academe.

a totalizing and reductionist theory that purports to objectively and comprehensively explain the world and everyone's experience of it at any given point in time and space.

If you are not already working towards the "Piled higher and Deeper," Gen you should give it thought.

False consciousness is a concept that Rad Fem borrows from Marxism

As most of us know Marxism– Leninism's final remaining stronghold is academia.

 

[genintoronto]

If you are not already working towards the "Piled higher and Deeper," Gen you should give it thought.

Been there done that, and I'm still paying for the lame T-shirt I got.

 

[Aardvark154]

Okay, got it. It's internally logical, if circular. But it's so extreme and ideologically rigid and absolute that it runs counter. . .

That's the borrowed from Marxism for you.

 

[genintoronto]

Okay, got it. It's internally logical, if circular. But it's so extreme and ideologically rigid and absolute that it runs counter to anything that anyone on this board would ever remotely agree with.

And this is exaclty the critique that post-modernism direct at meta-narratives.

 

[Aardvark154]

Been there done that, and I'm still paying for the lame T-shirt I got. ;-)

Ah, indeed.

I do like intelligent women.

.