Alex Rodriguez

[homonger]

Shouldn't we just admit that some bad choices were made, and try to pick better going forward?
That's what I'd do.

Yes, I would agree, and it's not my argument. I didn't come up with it. But as you say, it gets used a lot whenever so and so is mentioned for the Hall. That's because it is logical. Based on the current standard, I don't see how you can't let Piazza in.

In an ideal world, sure, I'd say, let's raise the bar moving forward, and not make the same mistake of letting these lackluster guys in again. But I just don't see how you enforce this. The Veterans Committee is going to continue to vote for their buddies or whatever, and the dilution will continue.

 

[Ranger68]

Yes, I would agree, and it's not my argument. I didn't come up with it. But as you say, it gets used a lot whenever so and so is mentioned for the Hall. That's because it is logical. Based on the current standard, I don't see how you can't let Piazza in.

In an ideal world, sure, I'd say, let's raise the bar moving forward, and not make the same mistake of letting these lackluster guys in again. But I just don't see how you enforce this. The Veterans Committee is going to continue to vote for their buddies or whatever, and the dilution will continue.

All we can do is hope that the VC doesn't continue cronyism. It shouldn't affect our push for votes from the BBWAA. I'm not going to be sucked into supporting a bunch of guys just because there's bums in the Hall now.

Piazza goes in on his own merit, not because there are bad guys in there.

 

[hummingbird]

Each position seems to have its own standard set for the Hall of Fame. It might not be right, but it's toughest to get in as a first baseman (or DH) and easiest to get in as a catcher.

Catchers have short careers. It's a hard position to learn, so there's only a few catchers who were starters in their early 20's (Bench, Pudge Rodriguez, and ?).

Then, you can't play 162 games a year - it's been tried, and it kills your career early.

Finally, there seems to be a 2000 game limit on most catchers. Again, there have been exceptions, but that seems to be their "best before" date. That's only about 14 years as a regular player. So you're never going to get 3000 hits.

So we've got guys like Ray Schalk (about as good as Pat Borders), Ernie Lombardi (good BA, bad defense), Al Lopez (partly in as a manager, but another Pat Borders type who played forever) in the Hall of Fame.

Or guys like Mickey Cochrane and Roy Campanella, who had short but great careers.

So the Hall of Fame needs catchers... I mean, it's hard to play baseball without one. Piazza is in, as will be Pudge Rodriguez and Jorge Posada - in around 2015 when they're voting for those guys, people will talk about Pudge as the greatest defensive catcher in history, Piazza as the greatest offensive catcher in history, and Posada as the key to all those World Series Champions.

 

[Ranger68]

I agree with pretty much everything you've said.
Except that the Hall isn't *drastically* under-represented at catcher. It's just full of mostly *offensive* players, and not players who were stellar *defensively*.
I do think that there should be more catchers. It's a hard position to learn, crucial defensively, and doesn't lend itself to a long playing career. Just because it's tougher, doesn't mean there should be fewer Hall of Famers.

 

[homonger]

Then the logic would be, since catchers don't typically put up the numbers that say, outfielders or first basemen do, then the Hall should accept catchers with lesser offensive numbers than the average HOFer. It gets very tricky very quickly, and you can see where I'm going with this. Ideally, there should be a different standard for every position, and arguably, for every era in which a player played. I don't see the HOF voters getting quite this evolved, however...

 

[hummingbird]

The neglected spot in the Hall of Fame is third base.

Is it a primarily defensive position, or primarily offensive? The Hall of Fame treats it as, by and large, an offensive position.

And other than A-Rod, who may be remembered as a third baseman, who is there now that fills the Hall of Fame bill?

Two guys seemed like a lock a couple years ago, but Troy Glaus and Scott Rolen can't stay healthy.

Edgardo Alfonso made a good run for a while, but he's fallen off badly. Adrian Beltre has had one great year.

The Hall FINALLY inducted Ron Santo this year, and the reaction from a lot of people was as if Kelly Gruber or Rance Mulliniks got in... Santo was very good at everything - he hit for average, power, walked a lot, and won some Gold Gloves - except his best years were in the sixties when it was the second dead ball era, so he looks about even with Buddy Bell or Bill Madlock if you don't take that into consideration.

So are there any third basemen other than A-Rod that will make it? Blalock? Beltre? Chipper?

 

[Ranger68]

Then the logic would be, since catchers don't typically put up the numbers that say, outfielders or first basemen do, then the Hall should accept catchers with lesser offensive numbers than the average HOFer. It gets very tricky very quickly, and you can see where I'm going with this. Ideally, there should be a different standard for every position, and arguably, for every era in which a player played. I don't see the HOF voters getting quite this evolved, however...

Yes, it's a complicated affair, if done properly. Then again, it's a big responsibility. Bill James argues that it should be opened up - that there should *literally* be a test on baseball rules, history, players, and that the *most* qualified people should get votes. It's not a bad idea. ......
Never gonna happen.

 

[hummingbird]

Now, to put things into perspective, there has never been a unanimous selection for the Hall of Fame. Somehow or other, since voting began in the 1930's, there were writers who felt the need to leave off:
Ty Cobb
Babe Ruth
Walter Johnson
Lou Gehrig
Ted Williams
Stan Musial
Willie Mays
Hank Aaron
Lefty Grove
Cal Ripken Jr.
Steve Carlton

Never mind DiMaggio, Mantle, Clemente, Ryan, Gibson, Bench, or any other worthy players.

In order to qualify as a voter for the Hall of Fame, you have to be a sportswriter for a daily newspaper. This can include places where the nearest ballgame is a rumour. I don't think there's any limit to the number of votes that you can have - if you think 50 players deserve being in the Hall, then you can vote for them, as long as they are eligible and not named Pete Rose or Joe Jackson.

Cobb and Williams were arrogant. Ruth was a drunk and a womanizer. Grove was nastier than Roger Clemens with a boil on his ass. But Johnson, Gehrig, Musial, Mays... all had reps as nice guys.

I'd like to see the voting made public. If some idiot decided to leave Willie Mays off his ballot so that he could vote for some nice guy that came from his home town, or because he forgot about Willie, his name should be made known like the name Doug Eddings (the ump that made the incredibly bad strike 3 call last night).

 

[Ranger68]

The neglected spot in the Hall of Fame is third base.

Is it a primarily defensive position, or primarily offensive? The Hall of Fame treats it as, by and large, an offensive position.

And other than A-Rod, who may be remembered as a third baseman, who is there now that fills the Hall of Fame bill?

Two guys seemed like a lock a couple years ago, but Troy Glaus and Scott Rolen can't stay healthy.

Edgardo Alfonso made a good run for a while, but he's fallen off badly. Adrian Beltre has had one great year.

The Hall FINALLY inducted Ron Santo this year, and the reaction from a lot of people was as if Kelly Gruber or Rance Mulliniks got in... Santo was very good at everything - he hit for average, power, walked a lot, and won some Gold Gloves - except his best years were in the sixties when it was the second dead ball era, so he looks about even with Buddy Bell or Bill Madlock if you don't take that into consideration.

So are there any third basemen other than A-Rod that will make it? Blalock? Beltre? Chipper?

Santo's not in. He missed by 8 votes in the VC. So did Gil Hodges.

Anwyay, there are still 18 thirdbasemen vs. 14 catchers. They're both under-represented, but catchers more so.
Hot corners were added in 95, 99, and 05. Catchers have been added only in 00 and 03 in the last decade.

Santo's probably in. He, Hodges, and Oliva have been very high on the VC vote list for two years running.

Gaetti's up in 2006. Not even close.
Caminiti in 2007. Same thing.
Fryman in 2008. Ditto.
Matt Williams in 2009. Getting closer, but no cigar.
Ventura in 2010. Ibid.
These guys all have the ill-fortune of playing in the shadow of Brett, Boggs, and Schmidt, no-brainer members. Even if they hadn't, they wouldn't be good enough.

Of the current crop of third-sackers ..... Eric Chavez is on a good run of Gold Gloves, and hits pretty well on top of that ...... same thing for Scott Rolen, who has a much better shot at this point (only this year has he had any serious injury issues) ....... Chipper's on a fast track, no doubt about it ....... as a young guy, I throw out David Wright. I don't think anyone else (Castilla, Glaus) is anything approaching candidacy. Okay, *maybe* Glaus.

I really think only Chipper's getting in of the guys entrenched in the league now. The rest compare with the Williams', Gaetti's and Ventura's of history - fine thirdbasemen, but not excellent.

Oh, and A-Rod, naturally.

I agree that the voters can make TERRIBLE choices, and the whole process should be opened up. Why not?

 

[Ranger68]

Actually, I take it back - a few players listed on the baseballreference list at thirdbase are also listed at short (Wallace, Sewell, Jackson, ...)
The actual numbers are: 3B - 12; C - 14.
Let's get Santo in there, guys!

Though, Molitor really should be in as a 3B - he played more games with a glove than without, and more games at 3B than any other fielding position.

 

[hummingbird]

D'oh!
I forgot that Santo was a near miss... and had a vacuum-brain on Eric Chavez.

Taking a look at the four surviving teams in MLB, there isn't a great catcher or third baseman among any of them...

Angels: C - Benji Molina, 3B - Chone Figgins (platooned with Quinlan)
White Sox C - AJ Pierzynski, 3B - Joe Crede
Cardinals C - Yadier Molina, 3B - Abraham Nunez (minus Scott Rolen)
Astros C - Brad Ausmus, 3B - Morgan Ensberg

Some really mediocre players here - Ausmus, Crede - and not one who'd make an All-Star team.

I'm not impressed with the shortstops either. Cabrera is the best of them, and he's probably not one of the top five shortstops in the league.

 

[RTRD]

I was gonna say...

Santo's not in. He missed by 8 votes in the VC. So did Gil Hodges.

...as a native Chicagoian and die hard Cub fan, how the hell did THAT get by me????

 

[RTRD]

There will never be unanimous selection....

Now, to put things into perspective, there has never been a unanimous selection for the Hall of Fame. Somehow or other, since voting began in the 1930's, there were writers who felt the need to leave off:
Ty Cobb
Babe Ruth
Walter Johnson
Lou Gehrig
Ted Williams
Stan Musial
Willie Mays
Hank Aaron
Lefty Grove
Cal Ripken Jr.
Steve Carlton

Never mind DiMaggio, Mantle, Clemente, Ryan, Gibson, Bench, or any other worthy players.

...because at least two writers have come out and said that given the injustice of Aaron not being unanimous (attributed to racism by most people), they will refuse to vote for any "obvious" selections. The best example of this policy in action was Tom Seaver, who came thisclose to being unanimous...a guy who had the stats AND was pretty much without fault (there were people who believed Ripken was hurting his team, Carlton didn't talk to writers, etc...)

 

[RTRD]

Actually...

The only way this question can be definitively answered is if A-Rod dropped dead tomorrow.

...and unfortunately, we can come close to answering it without A-Rod actually kneeling over.

We've actually had an example of a player "dropping dead" during his career.

Roberto Clemente
Hits-3000 HR-240 RBI-1305 TB-4492 BB-621 SB-83 CS-46 OBP-.359 SLUG-.475 AVG-.317

Now, Roberto was a fine outfielder. 12 Gold Gloves. Two World Series rings. But save for the 3000 hits and his career average, has offensive stats are pretty soft, even for a relatively dead ball era. And remember, he was an outfielder - and these stats came over 18 seasons. Except for 1966 and 1967, he's a nice hitting single slapping outfielder with a good glove. HOF? Well, yes, the 3000 hits get him there. But was he overwhelming or dominating in any way? Doesn't look like it to me.

Alex Rodriguez
Hits-1901 HR-429 RBI-1226 TB-3576 BB-730 SB-226 CS-56 OBP-385 SLUG-.577 AVG.307

Now, first of all, let's remember two things. One, the A-Rod stats you are looking at are for 12 seasons, versus 18. Second, 10 of those seasons were as a Gold Glove level shortstop. Say that again - 350 HR from a Gold Glove shortstop.

So, let’s see, more HR, comparable RBIs in 6 fewer seasons, 900 fewer TBs (less than 3 seasons worth for A-Rod) in 6 fewer seasons, three times the stolen bases, higher OBP, higher SLUG, comparably batting average. Hmmm…looks like pretty fair comparison for A-Rod, except HE WAS A SHORTSTOP, not an outfielder (yes, yes, Clemente played center). Plus the sympathy factor for A-Rod dropping dead. I say he's in - no question.

Well, what if A-Rod doesn't die, but just stops playing at the peak of his career due to injury? Well, unfortunately again, we can make a comparison.


Kirby Puckett
Hits-2304 HR-207 RBI-1085 TB-3453 BB-450 SB-134 CS-76 OBP.360 SLUG-.477 AVG-.318

Now note it just so happens that Kirby played exactly 12 seasons, same as A-Rod. More hits…ok. Less than half the HRs. Fewer RBIs. Fewer Total Bases. Fewer walks, half as many stolen bases. Comparable on base percentage, but the slugging percentages aren’t even close. Average again comparable. And again, we are talking an outfielder (a 6 Gold Glove winning outfielder, mind you) versus a Shortstop / 3rd baseman.

Bottom line – unless A-Rod gets booted for gambling or steroids, he is going to the HOF no matter WHAT he does for the balance of his career, including nothing at all.

 

[Ranger68]

I agree.

Here's an interesting article on Rodriguez:
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/fall-from-grace/