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Al (the Hypocrite) Gore buys ANOTHER house - 9 million bucks, 6 fireplaces, 9 bathroo

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flubadub

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C Dick said:
The article you linked to starts with assuming that there is a 5% chance of a 12 degree temperature increase, and then does calculations as to what the effect would be. But it even admits that the 5% number is a worst-case estimate. It is that number which can't be calculated, which makes the rest of the calculations pointless. That does not mean that there is no chance it could happen, or that the chance is small, but it does mean that we can not calculate in the manner you described.

If you feel defensive about Gore being an idiot, that is your issue, I just said he was an idiot, I made the point that this was not a reflection on the message. You can choose any popular message, and some of the people presenting it will be idiots.

The point in the last paragraph was that the message of reducing your footprint as being most important thing to do, is a misguided message. A better message would be for people to generate wealth, and direct it towards energy efficient technology. If people did that, the problem would be more likely to be solved. Ironically, generating wealth is exactly what Gore is doing, and if he is offsetting his personal consumption by investing in alternate energy, he is doing what he should be there also. But he is still an idiot.
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The article I quoted assumes that the risk of the IPCC's worst case scenario is 5% to 10%, from IPCC figures. I'd say that's calculated, perhaps as accurately as they can. It is calculating an estimate on the worst case scenario, not making a worst-case estimate (whatever that means). You can't admit that they give a number and then say that they can't give a number, that makes no sense. They calculated the number, they published it and they used it.

I don't feel defensive about Gore, in fact I was trying to say that I don't care if he's an idiot or not. I do care that the Gore is a hypocrit argument is another thinly veiled anti-global warming charge. Its a distraction (I think it was point number two on the Exxon memo) that takes time away from the central argument that the science is good. Wasting time talking about Gore is like arguing whether trains exist while you're sitting on the tracks in the way of the express. It doesn't matter other than stopping us from talking about what really matters.

Look up the Jevron principle. The idea is that the more energy efficient we become, the more we use. Got a flourescent bulb, now you can afford to keep it on all day.... Really what we need is a carbon tax, to help make it too expensive to use too much carbon based fuels. Oh, and just to start another argument or two, fewer kids. That's probably the biggest eco footprint decision you can make. Generating wealth to buy better windows won't make half the difference that raising the price of natural gas enough that we'd change the way we heated our houses, maybe heating the rooms we used when we used them instead of the whole house.
 
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C Dick

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flubadub said:
Look up the Jevron principle. The idea is that the more energy efficient we become, the more we use. Got a flourescent bulb, now you can afford to keep it on all day.... Really what we need is a carbon tax, to help make it too expensive to use too much carbon based fuels. Oh, and just to start another argument or two, fewer kids. That's probably the biggest eco footprint decision you can make. Generating wealth to buy better windows won't make half the difference that raising the price of natural gas enough that we'd change the way we heated our houses, maybe heating the rooms we used when we used them instead of the whole house.
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We'll have to agree to disagree about whether the 5% was calculated, or pulled out of the air. And we agree that Gore is an idiot, but that it does not matter.

As far as the efficiency arguement, you are right, that making lightbulbs use 60% less energy, and making windows insulate better, does not cut it. I think that we need to get to a point where most regular activities, such as making power and food, can be done without burning anything. I agree that a carbon tax is a good idea, it is the best way to encourage what should happen. If we could eliminate payroll and income taxes, and replace them with carbon tax, it would make much more sense, you would be discouraging bad things instead of good things.

I do not entirely agree with the less children thing, I look at society as consisting of people that generate wealth and contribute, and other people who consume and take up space and contribute nothing. We need less of the latter, but more of the former.
 
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flubadub

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Aug 18, 2009
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C Dick said:
We'll have to agree to disagree about whether the 5% was calculated, or pulled out of the air. And we agree that Gore is an idiot, but that it does not matter.

As far as the efficiency arguement, you are right, that making lightbulbs use 60% less energy, and making windows insulate better, does not cut it. I think that we need to get to a point where most regular activities, such as making power and food, can be done without burning anything. I agree that a carbon tax is a good idea, it is the best way to encourage what should happen. If we could eliminate payroll and income taxes, and replace them with carbon tax, it would make much more sense, you would be discouraging bad things instead of good things.

I do not entirely agree with the less children thing, I look at society as consisting of people that generate wealth and contribute, and other people who consume and take up space and contribute nothing. We need less of the latter, but more of the former.
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Don't put words in my mouth. I said I don't care if Gore is an idiot or not, its immaterial. I didn't say I think he's an idiot. And I showed you the reference to the paper, the 5% is not pulled out of the air and you have not shown any evidence it is.

I don't believe in eliminating payroll and income tax, flat taxes are an entirely different scenario that lead to a more unjust society, where the divide between the rich and the poor is very big. Personally, if taxes were to be shifted, I would prefer less sales taxes and more income taxes and a carbon tax. But I'm a commie pinko, according to Fox.

I'm also not into eugenics. Dividing people into productive and non-productive leads to saying things like - kick the old folks out into the blizzard, sterilize the handicapped, work camps for the poor, etc. That's different from saying we should have less children. I think all of us should probably have less children, but I'm not suggesting China like laws, just a general guideline. Taking the ttc and turning down your heat would achieve nothing in comparison to not having 3 kids, their kids not having kids, their kids.......
 
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C Dick

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flubadub said:
Don't put words in my mouth...
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You are right, I tried to coerce you into admitting that Gore is an idiot.

Yes, there are lots of different opinions about how wealth should be distributed.

I was not suggesting eugenics for the productive versus unproductive people, what I suggesting was that if you are a productive person, chosing not to have children is not neccessarily the best thing. Better to have productive children, and raise them to create wealth and be responsible.
 
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flubadub

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Aug 18, 2009
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C Dick said:
I was not suggesting eugenics for the productive versus unproductive people, what I suggesting was that if you are a productive person, chosing not to have children is not neccessarily the best thing. Better to have productive children, and raise them to create wealth and be responsible.
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That's assuming that your children will be productive.
And my only question to you, would be, doesn't the creation of wealth imply creating things? For instance, our friend Gore is quite productive and wealthy, as well as probably not an idiot. And yet here you and everyone else are accusing him of being a hypocrit and wasting resources. Which is it?
 
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C Dick

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flubadub said:
That's assuming that your children will be productive.
And my only question to you, would be, doesn't the creation of wealth imply creating things? For instance, our friend Gore is quite productive and wealthy, as well as probably not an idiot. And yet here you and everyone else are accusing him of being a hypocrit and wasting resources. Which is it?
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Yes, indeed, it you produce loser children, you failed. Creating wealth does not neccessarily mean creating things, and not all things are bad. Presumably it is things like electric cars, solar panels and nuclear reactors that will save the world. Gore creating wealth for himself is not bad. I see two bad things in what he is doing:
- He is using his wealth for overconsumption, in the form of big houses. He could spend less on houses, and more on making his existing houses efficient.
- He is a hypocrite, because he is telling other people to consume less, but that is not what he is doing.

To me, what someone in Gore's position should be doing is:
- Create wealth as he does.
- Use the wealth to fund development of clean technology.
- Urge people to do the same, to work hard, create wealth, and use it for clean technology.
 
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flubadub

Banned
Aug 18, 2009
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C Dick said:
To me, what someone in Gore's position should be doing is:
- Create wealth as he does.
- Use the wealth to fund development of clean technology.
- Urge people to do the same, to work hard, create wealth, and use it for clean technology.
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Ok, so he's good on point one.

Here's an article about Gore's green fund:
http://www.newser.com/story/26381/gore-venture-fund-raises-12b-for-green-tech-investment.html
That covers point two.

And I think you'd have to say his speaking tours, which turned into the film, covers point three.

Sounds like according to your argument Gore is the ideal green capatalist.
 
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