A question on the right to self defense
- Thread starter kkelso
- Start date
Ridiculous. So a hunter strays onto your farm by accident and you feel you have a right to shoot him?333conan said:
Whether he's trespassing or not is irrelevant. The ONLY condition that matters is whether or not he is a real, direct, and immediate threat to your physical person.
You belong in jail.
You belong in jail for the rest of your natural life.
The police aren't allowed to shoot someone in the back merely for trespassing. The police can only shoot someone in the back if they have determined that individual is a clear threat to society.
The question is poorly worded. It is possible you do not have a right to shoot him even in the last case. If he shot you by accident and is apologizing and acting worried for your health, for example, you have no right to shoot him, even though he has broken into your house with a gun.
On the other hand before he enters your house if he is aiming at you through the window and shouting out that he plans to kill you then at that point you have a right to defend yourself.
The question simply does not capture this critical bit of information, namely, at what point does he become a clear, direct threat to your physical person?
On the other hand before he enters your house if he is aiming at you through the window and shouting out that he plans to kill you then at that point you have a right to defend yourself.
The question simply does not capture this critical bit of information, namely, at what point does he become a clear, direct threat to your physical person?
Granted - I did not include many constraining details. I think it's rather interesting to see how different people fill in the blanks based on their experience and values.fuji said:
As an example, my feelings on the question are definitely colored by having had a gun pointed at me more than once.
I don't think the question is what is legal. It's "what would you do". And if someone breaks into your home and shoots you and you get hit, most people would be just a bit un-nerved and scared and not be cognizant to see if the guy that shot them might have hit them by accident or not but just return fire. As I have said, my answers:fuji said:
#5 - warning shot
#6 - shoot to maim
#7 - take him out
There are no fill in the blanks in Canada regarding self defense laws. You have to have a reasonable fear of death or grievous bodily harm and you have to have absolutely no intent in the beginning to harm the individual. Pretty much what you have have said would land you in jail in Canada irregardless of the number of times a gun has been pointed at you. Don pretty much what you said would land you in jail also.kkelso said:
http://www.atucanada.ca/content_Res...f Canada Assault Self Defence Definitions.pdf
sibannac said:
As stated, the question was not about the law.
However, speaking for myself only, if someone I do not know is holding a gun and jiggling my door handle with a clear intent to enter my house uninvited and without identifying themselves, then I can assure you I have a "reasonable fear of death or grievous bodily harm".
Careful there! There was an incident in Ottawa where a cop was threatened and had to shoot the individual. The bullet passed through her, through a wall, and went injured her boyfriend who was waiting in an adjacent bedroom (as directed by the cop).papasmerf said:
The cop was cleared (the threat was deemed sufficient to warrant the response), but firing into a wall can present danger to others.
The question is STILL poorly worded. It does not describe at any point the factors that make or break the decision to use that gun. By the way I do think the law has it right in this case--what is moral and what is legal I think are the same thing here.Don said:
It does not matter what the guy has done, where he is, what he is holding in his hand. The only thing that matters is what he is likely to do next, what a reasonabl person would believe he is likely to do next.
The question omits all the information you would need to judge that and so it is pointless to answer.
Is he pointing the gun at you and behaving in a threatening manner? Very different than if he has put the gun down and is rushing towards you with a band-aid.
If that is what you would do regardless of the details omitted from the original question--regardless of his demeanor, regardless of whether he is pointing the gun at you, etc., then you are a menace to society and you properly belong in jail.
Given the choice I would rather be paranoid than dead. Happily I am neither.fuji said:
If the standard is in fact a "reasonable fear of death or grievous bodily harm" then it is tremendously subjective. However, faced with the situation described I suppose I would be thinking very subjectively.
Anynym said:
Yes but firing a warning shot into the perp is not acceptable either.
BTW warning shos do not have to be fired first
LOL yeah, you could always fire a warning shot at him lol.....papasmerf said:Yes but firing a warning shot into the perp is not acceptable either.
BTW warning shos do not have to be fired first
But to answer a few outstanding details:
Unless you are brain dead, you can tell or reasonably so, if a neighbour is coming over to ask for spare bullets or is a stranger acting in a hostile manner. Even if I know the person if they enter my home without permission they are trespassing. For that matter there's only 4 people I know that have ongoing permission to enter my home unannounced.
The thing is, if I shoot someone illegally and end up in jail, I'd rather be alive and in jail than dead because I let them get me first. Especially if I had a wife and children in the home. A reasonable person would respond at the warning shout. Sure, they could be deaf, but then, unless I know the person, I don't really care.
The arguments against acting on your fight or flight instincts reminds me of the incident on the TTC (I think it was on bathurst st) a few years ago. A guy got on the bus and was obviously unsettled. A few minutes after getting on board, he pulled out a 30" machete and started waving it around. The people were able to get off and the police were called. They surrounded the bus and after repeated attempts to get him to drop the machete, and when the police went in to apprehend him, he took a swing at a cop. They shot and killed him.
After the fact they found he was a mentally disturbed schizophrenic who hadn't taken his meds. His family was all in the paper about how the cops shouldn't have shot him. By the news accounts (some where there) the police made 5 attempts to get him to calm down and drop the weapon. He didn't. He deserved to get shot.
Same as an intruder. If you yell at them to stop and they don't. You fire a warning shot and they don't stop. They just barge in waving a gun, then there's no question. Shoot him.
It is real simple you break into my house and threaten my life, the life of may family or friends, then I will defend myself or them. Should you die while attacking me so be it.
Armed or unarmed entering my house and attacking me, would prove fatal. The courts had made sure of that. You see, if you fight an intruder and he or she lives you will be sued for everything you have.
Armed or unarmed entering my house and attacking me, would prove fatal. The courts had made sure of that. You see, if you fight an intruder and he or she lives you will be sued for everything you have.
All a warning shot will do is let the person know you are there and make him think you don't have the balls to shoot him.
Shoot to wound? In the gut or arm? I am glad that you are that good a shot that in this stressful situation you can go target shooting with great accuracy. Also give him the opportunity to recover so that he can sue you. There are hundreds of lawyers who would line up at his bedside to sue you.
He is on your property with a gun. Kill him. Unload your weapon into him.
When they ask you why you shot him twelve times say "thats all the bullets that were in my gun."
Shoot to wound? In the gut or arm? I am glad that you are that good a shot that in this stressful situation you can go target shooting with great accuracy. Also give him the opportunity to recover so that he can sue you. There are hundreds of lawyers who would line up at his bedside to sue you.
He is on your property with a gun. Kill him. Unload your weapon into him.
When they ask you why you shot him twelve times say "thats all the bullets that were in my gun."
