A Plea for Caution From Russia

[Aardvark154]

Simplistic, I agree, but slightly more accurate and less simplistic than your often repeated assertions that the US saved all of us from Hitler.

Please quote where I've said that. Further more particularly where I've said that and that the Russians didn't do the heavy lifting.

I seem to recall posting about how my grandfather-in-law-was shot down and killed over the Crimea in relation to the issue of how the Cold War coloured the Western perspective on the Eastern Front.

But hey, taking a cheap shot is something for which you would apologize?

 

[Aardvark154]

Except that, I never said anything like that.

The Hell you didn't! Fuji is spot on.

 

[Aardvark154]

It was not deliberate. . . the point, here?

That surely you must be a UT freshman or sophomore, no one else would be so stupid and naïve as to deny that it was deliberate. I presume you haven't spent much time talking with Ukrainian or Russian Canadians or much time in either Russia or Ukraine.


Further what "what if" fiction about the Eastern Front?

 

[fuji]

mtm, if you read "Bloodlands" by Timothy Snyder, available on Amazon kindle for about ten bucks, you might be less prone to spouting nonsense.

It documents how both the Nazis and the Stalinists thought that they were bringing about a change so important that it justified killing millions upon millions of people.

In the case of the Stalinists, they thought that communism was a historical inevitability and that no sacrifice was too large in the violent struggle to bring about the "end of history".

This was their justification for murdering, intentionally starving, purging, and persecuting literally millions of people.

The whole episode stands as an example of how truly dangerous leaders become when they begin to place religious beliefs or political ideologies above the immediate interests of the public.

Vietnam would be the American version, killing enormous numbers of people for purely ideological reasons. At least the US, as a democracy, was eventually able to stop that nonsense.

In the USSR, no one could stop the ideological killing.

 

[danmand]

Please quote where I've said that. Further more particularly where I've said that and that the Russians didn't do the heavy lifting.

Come on Aardie, are you already having dementia and cannot remember what you have posted. Whenever I have suggested (and I have done this often) that the US should stay out of a war, you inevitably post how I should be happy that the US saved Europe from Hitler. Every time, without fail. If you cannot remember that, you need to see a doctor.

 

[Aardvark154]

Come on Aardie, are you already having dementia and cannot remember what you have posted. Whenever I have suggested (and I have done this often) that the US should stay out of a war, you inevitably post how I should be happy that the US saved Europe from Hitler. Every time, without fail. If you cannot remember that, you need to see a doctor.

Which has what to do with the Russians did much of the heavy lifting?

Seemingly, which to put it mildly is richly ironic, you would have been perfectly happy singing the Internationale, but for the rest of Western Europe indeed it was the U.K. and the Dominions, and then the the U.S.A. which prevented you from all permanently speaking either German or first German and then perhaps Russian.

 

[Rockslinger]

The whole episode stands as an example of how truly dangerous leaders become when they begin to place religious beliefs or political ideologies above the immediate interests of the public.

Actually, Stalin also wanted to eliminate the competition (real or imagined) to his total absolute power.

As far as WW II, the only countries with "clean hands" are the Dane who surrendered after 3 hours of war and the French who surrendered after 3 weeks (more or less) of warfare. Nobody can accuse them of killing Germans. Meanwhile, the Russians killed over 3-5 million (rough estimate) Germans, far more than Germans killed by the U.S.

 

[Aardvark154]

The whole episode stands as an example of how truly dangerous leaders become when they begin to place religious beliefs or political ideologies above the immediate interests of the public.

Unlike many later Soviet leaders Josef V. Dugashvili (despite having been a seminarian) had basically a non-existent moral compass. It wasn't that he had religious beliefs, rather than he had none which was the problem.

 

[danmand]

As far as WW II, the only countries with "clean hands" are the Dane who surrendered after 3 hours of war and the French who surrendered after 3 weeks (more or less) of warfare. Nobody can accuse them of killing Germans. Meanwhile, the Russians killed over 3-5 million (rough estimate) Germans, far more than Germans killed by the U.S.

The danes indeed have (or rather had) clean hands. 99% of danish jews survived WWII.

 

[basketcase]

...

In the case of the Stalinists, they thought that communism was a historical inevitability and that no sacrifice was too large in the violent struggle to bring about the "end of history".

This was their justification for murdering, intentionally starving, purging, and persecuting literally millions of people....

And moral people say that is wrong. Your defense of Stalinist murder (including the invasion of Poland) is appalling.

 

[Aardvark154]

The danes indeed have (or rather had) clean hands. 99% of danish jews survived WWII.

Your point is? Are you saying for a German occupied country? One might mention that save for those killed while fighting in the armed forces a rather greater percentage of American, British, Australian and Canadian Jews survived World War II.

Of course this in large measure was because it was far easier to get people from Denmark to Sweden than from the Netherlands to the U.K.

 

[Aardvark154]

Yeah and they dropped bombs all over Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Dresden killing hundreds of thousands of civilians for absolutely no reason.

Beaten to death in many threads before this.

 

[Aardvark154]

And moral people say that is wrong. Your defense of Stalinist murder (including the invasion of Poland) is appalling.

It is Mtm2011's defence of the indefencible, not Fuji's.

 

[danmand]

Your point is? Are you saying for a German occupied country? One might mention that save for those killed while fighting in the armed forces a rather greater percentage of American, British, Australian and Canadian Jews survived World War II.

if you cannot figure it out........

Of course this in large measure was because it was far easier to get people from Denmark to Sweden than from the Netherlands to the U.K.

No it was not. As usual, you know not about what you speak of.

The newest book about saving the majority of the danish news was just reviewed in Macleans magazine.
Bo Lidegaard: "Countrymen: The Untold Story Of How Denmark’s Jews Escaped The Nazis"

 

[Aardvark154]

Of course this in large measure was because it was far easier to get people from Denmark to Sweden than from the Netherlands to the U.K.

No it was not. As usual, you know not about what you speak of.**

The newest book about saving the majority of the danish news was just reviewed in Macleans magazine.**
Bo Lidegaard: "Countrymen: The Untold Story Of How Denmark’s Jews Escaped The Nazis"

http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/09/20/...story-of-how-denmarks-jews-escaped-the-nazis/


The shortest distance across the Kattegat is 37 miles/60km on the other hand the shortest distance across the North Sea from the Netherlands to East Anglia is approximately 110 miles/177 km.



By the way it is very little known is that Bulgaria also saved its Jews. See Michael Bar-Zohar's: Beyond Hitler's Grasp: The Heroic Rescue of Bulgaria's Jews This was kept secret by the Communist Government as the real heroes were the Bulgarian royal government, the Tsar of Bulgaria and the Bulgarian Orthodox Church, and the communist regime could not countenance credit to be given to them. Likewise although the number was quite small - well under 2,000, so did Finland.

 

[fuji]

And moral people say that is wrong. Your defense of Stalinist murder (including the invasion of Poland) is appalling.

I am not the one defending Stalin. I am the one calling mtm morally bankrupt for defending Stalin.

 

[basketcase]

I am not the one defending Stalin. I am the one calling mtm morally bankrupt for defending Stalin.

Apologies. Was meant for comrade mtm.

 

[mtm2011]

That surely you must be a UT freshman or sophomore, no one else would be so stupid and naïve as to deny that it was deliberate. I presume you haven't spent much time talking with Ukrainian or Russian Canadians or much time in either Russia or Ukraine.

See Davies and Wheatcroft; Getty... Hell even Conquest admits it wasn't deliberate now. And these are the western scholars!

Further what "what if" fiction about the Eastern Front?

Read what you wrote. Seriously?

 

[mtm2011]

mtm, if you read "Bloodlands" by Timothy Snyder, available on Amazon kindle for about ten bucks, you might be less prone to spouting nonsense

I'm not going to comment on a book I have not read, but anything comparing fascism and communism as "two sides of a coin" is pretty low on my TRL.

At least the US, as a democracy, was eventually able to stop that nonsense..

You can't be serious.

 

[mtm2011]

Actually, Stalin also wanted to eliminate the competition (real or imagined) to his total absolute power.

When the so-called "Lenin testament" came out after Lenin's death Stalin offered to resign the position of General Secretary - twice. Twice his resignation was overwhelmingly refused by the Central Committee, including Trotsky!