A Meteorologist Said This Might Be Among The Worst Winters In Over Two Decades For Ontarians And We Could Even See Some Snow In October

Ceiling Cat

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It is expected to be colder in the west this year due to La Niña, weather patterns in the Atlantic are altering the path of the Gulf Stream causing warmer air to be sandwiched between the two weather troughs. The weather may be warmer than usual in Southern Ontario and Quebec. It is possible that the GTA will see more Lake Effect snow.


 
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Frankfooter

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Well, you seem determined to discuss polar vortexes etc, but either fail to understand my point or feel threatened by it. I can understand how pleasant it is for you to divert attention away from my logical point, but I refuse to be diverted.

Now, I repeat. what kind of temperature patterns for the Northern Hemisphere in winter would you agree that, if they occurred, would NOT support Global Warming Theory?
Why are you focused on only the northern hemisphere and only in winter?
Climate change is a global event that should be judged by global temperatures.

So I would reply that if you're looking for specific, local weather patterns to claim global climate change isn't happening you'd need to show that the global temperature isn't rising, CO2 isn't rising, temperatures in the northern hemisphere isn't rising, ice melt in glaciers in the northern hemisphere aren't melting, snow coverage isn't declining, arctic fires aren't increasing, arctic ice coverage isn't declining. And if you really think that arguing that extreme weather events like polar vortexes, which can cause extreme cold in one area of the northern hemisphere and extreme warmth in other parts of the northern hemisphere at the same time somehow disproves climate change then I'd have to say you really don't understand the difference between weather and climate or the changes that we are definitely seeing.

What we are seeing is exactly what scientists told us we'd see.

 

barnacler

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Why are you focused on only the northern hemisphere and only in winter?
Climate change is a global event that should be judged by global temperatures.

So I would reply that if you're looking for specific, local weather patterns to claim global climate change isn't happening you'd need to show that the global temperature isn't rising, CO2 isn't rising, temperatures in the northern hemisphere isn't rising, ice melt in glaciers in the northern hemisphere aren't melting, snow coverage isn't declining, arctic fires aren't increasing, arctic ice coverage isn't declining. And if you really think that arguing that extreme weather events like polar vortexes, which can cause extreme cold in one area of the northern hemisphere and extreme warmth in other parts of the northern hemisphere at the same time somehow disproves climate change then I'd have to say you really don't understand the difference between weather and climate or the changes that we are definitely seeing.

What we are seeing is exactly what scientists told us we'd see.

YOU brought up the Northern hemisphere first, not me.

The models have done an incredibly poor job;


The ultimate test for a climate model is the accuracy of its predictions. But the models predicted that there would be much greater warming between 1998 and 2014 than actually happened. If the models were doing a good job, their predictions would cluster symmetrically around the actual measured temperatures. That was not the case here; a mere 2.4 percent of the predictions undershot actual temperatures and 97.6 percent overshot, according to Cato Institute climatologist Patrick Michaels, former MIT meteorologist Richard Lindzen, and Cato Institute climate researcher Chip Knappenberger. Climate models as a group have been “running hot,” predicting about 2.2 times as much warming as actually occurred over 1998–2014. Of course, this doesn’t mean that no warming is occurring, but, rather, that the models’ forecasts were exaggerated.

Conclusions

If someone with a hand-held stopwatch tells you that a runner cut his time by 0.00005 seconds, you should be skeptical. If someone with a climate model tells you that a 0.036 Wm–2 CO2 signal can be detected within an environment of 150 Wm–2 error, you should be just as skeptical.

As Willie Soon and his coauthors found, “Our current lack of understanding of the Earth’s climate system does not allow us to determine reliably the magnitude of climate change that will be caused by anthropogenic CO2 emissions, let alone whether this change will be for better or for worse.”
 

barnacler

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Computer models of the climate are at the heart of calls to ban the cheap, reliable energy that powers our thriving economy and promotes healthier, longer lives. For decades, these models have projected dramatic warming from small, fossil-fueled increases in atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide, with catastrophic consequences.

Yet, the real-world data aren’t cooperating. They show only slight warming, mostly at night and in winter . According to the United Nations' Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, there has been no systematic increase in the frequency of extreme weather events, and the ongoing rise in sea level that began with the end of the ice age continues with no great increase in magnitude. The constancy of land-based records is obvious in data from the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.


Should we trust these computer models of doom? Let’s find out by comparing the actual temperatures since 1979 with what the 32 families of climate models used in the latest U.N. report on climate science predicted they would be.

Atmospheric scientist John Christy developed a global temperature record of the lower atmosphere using highly accurate satellite soundings. NASA honored him for this achievement, and he was an author for a previous edition of the U.N. report. He told a House Science Committee hearing in March 2017 that the U.N. climate models have failed badly.



Christy compared the average model projections since 1979 to the most reliable observations — those made by satellites and weather balloons over the vast tropics. The result? In the upper levels of the lower atmosphere, the models predicted seven times as much warming as has been observed. Overprediction also occurred at all other levels. Christy recently concluded that, on average, the projected heating by the models is three times what has been observed.

This is a critical error. Getting the tropical climate right is essential to understanding climate worldwide. Most of the atmospheric moisture originates in the tropical ocean, and the difference between surface and upper atmospheric temperature determines how much of the moisture rises into the atmosphere. That’s important. Most of Earth’s agriculture is dependent upon the transfer of moisture from the tropics to temperate regions.

Christy is not looking at surface temperatures, as measured by thermometers at weather stations. Instead, he is looking at temperatures measured from calibrated thermistors carried by weather balloons and data from satellites. Why didn’t he simply look down here, where we all live? Because the records of the surface temperatures have been badly compromised.

Globally averaged thermometers show two periods of warming since 1900: a half-degree from natural causes in the first half of the 20th century, before there was an increase in industrial carbon dioxide that was enough to produce it, and another half-degree in the last quarter of the century.

The latest U.N. science compendium asserts that the latter half-degree is at least half manmade. But the thermometer records showed that the warming stopped from 2000 to 2014. Until they didn’t. In two of the four global surface series, data were adjusted in two ways that wiped out the “pause” that had been observed.

The first adjustment changed how the temperature of the ocean surface is calculated, by replacing satellite data with drifting buoys and temperatures in ships’ water intake. The size of the ship determines how deep the intake tube is, and steel ships warm up tremendously under sunny, hot conditions. The buoy temperatures, which are measured by precise electronic thermistors, were adjusted upwards to match the questionable ship data. Given that the buoy network became more extensive during the pause, that’s guaranteed to put some artificial warming in the data.

The second big adjustment was over the Arctic Ocean, where there aren’t any weather stations. In this revision, temperatures were estimated from nearby land stations. This runs afoul of basic physics.

Even in warm summers, there’s plenty of ice over much of the Arctic Ocean. Now , for example, when the sea ice is nearing its annual minimum, it still extends part way down Greenland’s east coast. As long as the ice-water mix is well-stirred (like a glass of ice water), the surface temperature stays at the freezing point until all the ice melts. So, extending land readings over the Arctic Ocean adds nonexistent warming to the record.

Further, both global and United States data have been frequently adjusted. There is nothing scientifically wrong with adjusting data to correct for changes in the way temperatures are observed and for changes in the thermometers. But each serial adjustment has tended to make the early years colder, which increases the warming trend. That’s wildly improbable.

In addition, thermometers are housed in standardized instrument shelters, which are to be kept a specified shade of white. Shelters in poorer countries are not repainted as often, and darker stations absorb more of the sun’s energy. It’s no surprise that poor tropical countries show the largest warming from this effect.

All this is to say that the weather balloon and satellite temperatures used in Christy’s testimony are the best data we have, and they show that the U.N.’s climate models just aren’t ready for prime time.
 

jcpro

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Jan 31, 2014
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Why are you focused on only the northern hemisphere and only in winter?
Climate change is a global event that should be judged by global temperatures.

So I would reply that if you're looking for specific, local weather patterns to claim global climate change isn't happening you'd need to show that the global temperature isn't rising, CO2 isn't rising, temperatures in the northern hemisphere isn't rising, ice melt in glaciers in the northern hemisphere aren't melting, snow coverage isn't declining, arctic fires aren't increasing, arctic ice coverage isn't declining. And if you really think that arguing that extreme weather events like polar vortexes, which can cause extreme cold in one area of the northern hemisphere and extreme warmth in other parts of the northern hemisphere at the same time somehow disproves climate change then I'd have to say you really don't understand the difference between weather and climate or the changes that we are definitely seeing.

What we are seeing is exactly what scientists told us we'd see.

Nobody is disproving "climate change ". The changing climate is constant- always has been and always will as long as this planet has the atmosphere. Btw, speaking of a different hemisphere https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2021/10/01/south-pole-coldest-winter-record/
 

Frankfooter

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Apr 10, 2015
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YOU brought up the Northern hemisphere first, not me.

The models have done an incredibly poor job;


The ultimate test for a climate model is the accuracy of its predictions. But the models predicted that there would be much greater warming between 1998 and 2014 than actually happened. If the models were doing a good job, their predictions would cluster symmetrically around the actual measured temperatures. That was not the case here; a mere 2.4 percent of the predictions undershot actual temperatures and 97.6 percent overshot, according to Cato Institute climatologist Patrick Michaels, former MIT meteorologist Richard Lindzen, and Cato Institute climate researcher Chip Knappenberger. Climate models as a group have been “running hot,” predicting about 2.2 times as much warming as actually occurred over 1998–2014. Of course, this doesn’t mean that no warming is occurring, but, rather, that the models’ forecasts were exaggerated.

Conclusions

If someone with a hand-held stopwatch tells you that a runner cut his time by 0.00005 seconds, you should be skeptical. If someone with a climate model tells you that a 0.036 Wm–2 CO2 signal can be detected within an environment of 150 Wm–2 error, you should be just as skeptical.

As Willie Soon and his coauthors found, “Our current lack of understanding of the Earth’s climate system does not allow us to determine reliably the magnitude of climate change that will be caused by anthropogenic CO2 emissions, let alone whether this change will be for better or for worse.”
You don't understand.

You copied and pasted, without showing the links, something that appears from some science denier website that uses bait and switch and old data.
Bait and switch - this models are for surface temperature and your copy and pasted text is about satellite data for tropospheric temperatures. You don't measure the accuracy of surface temp projections against the temps recorded in the clouds, that's bait and switch. You're a sucker if you don't see it.

Old data - Doug Christie, who I think you may be quoting, is using very old data. Roy Spencer's satellite data agrees with NASA's AIR satellite data and both show warming, though different from surface temps, they still show as much warming as projected.

This article is 2 years old, but the crap you copy and pasted is even older than that.
 

Frankfooter

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Apr 10, 2015
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Nobody is disproving "climate change ". The changing climate is constant- always has been and always will as long as this planet has the atmosphere. Btw, speaking of a different hemisphere https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2021/10/01/south-pole-coldest-winter-record/
Sure the climate changes naturally, but human society came to be during a temporary lull between glacial periods, a fortunate time when there wasn't much change in the climate.
But in the last 100 years we changed all that and are now on pace for massive, human caused, climate change.
 

jcpro

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Jan 31, 2014
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Sure the climate changes naturally, but human society came to be during a temporary lull between glacial periods, a fortunate time when there wasn't much change in the climate.
But in the last 100 years we changed all that and are now on pace for massive, human caused, climate change.
Actually, the interglacial periods were some of the most active and violent climactic times with very rapid cooling and warming periods. All "organic" with ZERO help from man. The Earth is not flat and neither it is a cube. It is ROUND, it spins and it is tilted toward the our Sun. Our archeology and history clearly show that our planet does better when it is warmer, much warmer than it is today. The humanity does better in the warmer climate as well. The premise that a 1 or 2 degrees increase in the global average will spell some kind of doom or even a mild problem is an asinine proposition advanced by people with other motives, too dumb to look back into our history and one semi normal kid from Sweden.
 
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Frankfooter

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Actually, the interglacial periods were some of the most active and violent climactic times with very rapid cooling and warming periods. All "organic" with ZERO help from man. The Earth is not flat and neither it is a cube. It is ROUND, it spins and it is tilted toward the our Sun. Our archeology and history clearly show that our planet does better when it is warmer, much warmer than it is today. The humanity does better in the warmer climate as well. The premise that a 1 or 2 degrees increase in the global average will spell some kind of doom or even a mild problem is an asinine proposition advanced by people with other motives, too dumb to look back into our history and one semi normal kid from Sweden.
Tell me the difference in global temperature between now, an ice age and the low end of a thermal maximum.
 

jcpro

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Tell me the difference in global temperature between now, an ice age and the low end of a thermal maximum.
I'm not interested in that...because it doesn't matter. There's no such thing as an ideal climate, temperature, optimal temperature, etc. Our climate is the result of conflict between various forces in nature like the Sun, air and water currents, volcanic activities, etc. And there is NOTHING that we can do about it nor should we because we still don't understand the dynamics and the correlation between different forces. All we can do, like all the biosphere on Earth, is to adapt.
 
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Frankfooter

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I'm not interested in that...because it doesn't matter. There's no such thing as an ideal climate, temperature, optimal temperature, etc. Our climate is the result of conflict between various forces in nature like the Sun, air and water currents, volcanic activities, etc. And there is NOTHING that we can do about it nor should we because we still don't understand the dynamics and the correlation between different forces. All we can do, like all the biosphere on Earth, is to adapt.
You don't understand, that's very clear. Nor are you interesting in trying to understand something that runs against your own confirmation bias.
Here are the numbers you were unable or unwilling to check.

4ºC - the difference between the temp of the world now and the last ice age was 4ºC

4-5ºC - that's how much warmer a thermal maximum is than our present temp.

So when we say we are on track for 3-4ºC in warming by the turn of the century we're really saying we are taking the planet to another thermal maximum.
The premise that a 1 or 2 degrees increase in the global average will spell some kind of doom or even a mild problem is an asinine proposition advanced by people with other motives, too dumb to look back into our history and one semi normal kid from Sweden.
Who here was too dumb to look back into our history?
 

jcpro

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Jan 31, 2014
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You don't understand, that's very clear. Nor are you interesting in trying to understand something that runs against your own confirmation bias.
Here are the numbers you were unable or unwilling to check.

4ºC - the difference between the temp of the world now and the last ice age was 4ºC

4-5ºC - that's how much warmer a thermal maximum is than our present temp.

So when we say we are on track for 3-4ºC in warming by the turn of the century we're really saying we are taking the planet to another thermal maximum.

Who here was too dumb to look back into our history?
Conjecture based on assumptions.
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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Nobody is disproving "climate change ". The changing climate is constant- always has been and always will as long as this planet has the atmosphere. Btw, speaking of a different hemisphere https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2021/10/01/south-pole-coldest-winter-record/
And no one with even a hint of scientific method denies that humans are playing a role in creating rapid change that will threaten human activity. The only actual debate on the topic is about how much impact we are having and what if anything can be done.
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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I'm not interested in that...because it doesn't matter. There's no such thing as an ideal climate, temperature, optimal temperature, etc. Our climate is the result of conflict between various forces in nature like the Sun, air and water currents, volcanic activities, etc. And there is NOTHING that we can do about it nor should we because we still don't understand the dynamics and the correlation between different forces. All we can do, like all the biosphere on Earth, is to adapt.
The sun can be a primary driver but the patterns of solar activity don't correlate to what we see with climate. The movement of energy through currents is understood fairly well on a global level though some of the more local impacts such as the polar vortex or AMOC aren't completely detailed yet. The impact of volcanic activity is well understood.

Sounds to me like you are making excuses. It is completely irrational to ignore our somewhat complete understanding of the topic simply because we still have some unknowns.
 
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