A Kinder, Gentler 2020-21 Toronto Maple Leafs thread

[Fun For All]

Sometimes I think what bugs the Nylander doubters like myself on this board more than his actual deficiencies are the constant praising of the flashes of brilliance from his backers. These posters seem to be totally ignorant of his bad plays. I’m a big fan of Marner and Matthews but I’d call them out when warranted. I’m one of the worse Nylander critics but I’d give him credit when due, but I don’t remember seeing any kind of criticism from the same posters who sing his praises and mock his critics whenever Nylander makes good plays.

I sometimes think what bugs Nylander doubters is that he is actually a good player...it's what happens when you holdout for a big contract, expectations and resentment among fans rise,

 

[John Wick]

Don’t look now...Mitch Marner is the NHL scoring leader.

Wonder if he will be able to hold that title, or at least stay in the top 5 to the end of a shortened season with the team he has around him? I also sometimes wonder if his points are more a result of his own individual play and raw talent, as opposed to the good play of those around him. I'm pretty sure he makes other players look good on a pretty consistent basis; not sure if the same could be said in reverse. I do wish he'd try to shoot more when he's in tight though. He's always looking to make a pass, but many times overlooks the scoring chance he has right in front of him. Still very young, can only get better with the right coaching.

 

[mellowjello]

I sometimes think what bugs Nylander doubters is that he is actually a good player...it's what happens when you holdout for a big contract, expectations and resentment among fans rise,

Can you explain this a bit further, I'm not sure if I'm missing something.

 

[Fun For All]

Can you explain this a bit further, I'm not sure if I'm missing something.

I'm saying Nylander has critics among fans who still have ill feelings and resentment over his contract holdout, mind you, when he came back he was very average and deserved it.

But last year he scored 31, this year he has 7 points in 7 games and to me look's like one the best guys out there...he's not going to be great every shift but he's better than most.

 

[smuddan]

I'm saying Nylander has critics among fans who still have ill feelings and resentment over his contract holdout, mind you, when he came back he was very average and deserved it.

There’s validity in your statement but I think it’s unfair to blame Nylander for the contract he was given or the holdout before he got it. I mean every player would want as much as what he thinks he’s worth and I don’t blame him a bit for holding out until he gets it. If you were in his shoes you’d likely do the same. Why would you want to be paid less than WHAT YOU THINK you’re worth ?

If he was overpaid because he sat out then it’s the gm’s problem. The same fans holding a grudge should be mad at Dubas for how that contract negotiation was handled, or the ripple effect it had on the subsequent Matthews and Marner negotiations.

 

[Fun For All]

There’s validity in your statement but I think it’s unfair to blame Nylander for the contract he was given or the holdout before he got it. I mean every player would want as much as what he thinks he’s worth and I don’t blame him a bit for holding out until he gets it. If you were in his shoes you’d likely do the same. Why would you want to be paid less than WHAT YOU THINK you’re worth ?

If he was overpaid because he sat out then it’s the gm’s problem. The same fans holding a grudge should be mad at Dubas for how that contract negotiation was handled, or the ripple effect it had on the subsequent Matthews and Marner negotiations.

I'm not blaming Nylander for the holdout at all...

 

[smuddan]

I'm not blaming Nylander for the holdout at all...

I know, I was just referring to those that do as you previously stated.

 

[Fun For All]

I know, I was just referring to those that do as you previously stated.

In the history of contract holdouts, their teammates always understand and welcome them back with open arms...fans, not so much, the player better produce.

 

[Darts]

Canadiens have two against Calgary and 3 vs. Vancouver in next 5. Leafs have two against Calgary, two more vs. Edmonton and Vancouver in next five. Wonder who will have the better record against similar opponents?

The CBC talking heads on Saturday night made an interesting observation about Vancouver. In the second of 3 games against Montreal, the Montreal players targeted undersize Vancouver defenseman Quinn Hughes (5'10", 175 lbs) and lightweight forward Elias Pettersson (6'2" but only 176 lbs). The CBC even showed two clips where Hughes simply threw the puck away to try to avoid getting hit.

 

[mellowjello]

I'm saying Nylander has critics among fans who still have ill feelings and resentment over his contract holdout, mind you, when he came back he was very average and deserved it.

But last year he scored 31, this year he has 7 points in 7 games and to me look's like one the best guys out there...he's not going to be great every shift but he's better than most.

That's fair, I can't understand the part about doubters being bugged because he's a good player though.

 

[John Wick]

.. this year he has 7 points in 7 games and to me look's like one the best guys out there...he's not going to be great every shift but he's better than most.

I think you have to think a bit deeper on that one...7 points in 7 games is a tad misleading, and not necessarily a good indicator of how well he's playing. Nylander picked up 3 points in a solid opening night performance, then pretty much disappeared, with no even strength points for the next 4 games. Since the first game, his play has been sporadic at best - one high high (Vesey set up), one low low (the Draisaitl shorty). I'd be happy with consistent. Granted, it's only 7 game sample size, and he like every other guy in the league deserves some time to get into a groove.

That said, I still see him stuck in many of his legacy bad habits. As I said before, he has tons of raw talent and is still young - there's no reason a good coach or team captain couldn't coach him out of some of that stuff to the benefit of the whole team, if not the league itself.

Imagine what life in the GTA would be like if he rounded out the physical and defensive aspects of his game and kept putting up solid numbers? Leafs Nation would carry the little sucker around on a silk pillow to and from every game and practice.

 

[Fun For All]

I think you have to think a bit deeper on that one...7 points in 7 games is a tad misleading, and not necessarily a good indicator of how well he's playing. Nylander picked up 3 points in a solid opening night performance, then pretty much disappeared, with no even strength points for the next 4 games. Since the first game, his play has been sporadic at best - one high high (Vesey set up), one low low (the Draisaitl shorty). I'd be happy with consistent. Granted, it's only 7 game sample size, and he like every other guy in the league deserves some time to get into a groove.

That said, I still see him stuck in many of his legacy bad habits. As I said before, he has tons of raw talent and is still young - there's no reason a good coach or team captain couldn't coach him out of some of that stuff to the benefit of the whole team, if not the league itself.

Imagine what life in the GTA would be like if he rounded out the physical and defensive aspects of his game and kept putting up solid numbers? Leafs Nation would carry the little sucker around on a silk pillow to and from every game and practice.

I think you're over thinking it...he's been one of the better players...you say consistency, he's not going to be great every game.

He does have two 60 plus point seasons and another with 30 plus goals, he delivers offence because that's the type of player he is...if he play's differently he'll be on the 4th line with a 15 point season.

I think the coach is more than happy with his play...the team captain doesn't coach players to a style of play...there are way bigger issues with the Leafs than Nylander's play.

 

[John Wick]

I think you're over thinking it...he's been one of the better players...you say consistency, he's not going to be great every game.

He does have two 60 plus point seasons and another with 30 plus goals, he delivers offence because that's the type of player he is...if he play's differently he'll be on the 4th line with a 15 point season.

I think the coach is more than happy with his play...the team captain doesn't coach players to a style of play...there are way bigger issues with the Leafs than Nylander's play.

Watching the first 7 games, on the whole many would say Nylander has been consistently out-played game in, game out, by Marner, Tavares, Matthews, Hyman, Vesey and Kerfoot. And that has been while playing significant minutes with top five forwards and on the PP. My comment on his points and how he got them was clear above. For all that, he's sitting at a +/- of (-2)! Kind of tells a story on performance doesn't it.

Everyone of his supporters screams "He's a skill player! That's what he does! That's his game!' Well, Sidney Crosby, Geno Malkin, John Tavares, Austin Matthews, Ovie, Mitch Marner, Scheifele, MacKinnon, Brad Marchand are all skill players too, but they certainly have a grittier game than Willy. And better defensively too. Changing his game so he stays longer in his own zone and covers his side/man is not going to affect his points production. Learning to finish a check more than once every 10 games is not going to change his points production. Toning down the stick check only model of forechecking is not going to change his points production. But those things may help him grow into a better, more well-rounded player and less of a liability to his linemates and his team when he's on the ice.

Don't forget, there are five other Leafs on the ice with Willy. When he's missing his man cause he's cherry picking at the red line, going for a long skate after weak check attempts, flailing around with his stick, they're essentially short-handed out there. Believe me, they notice.

Who knows if Keefe is really happy with his play? Publicly, he's not going to bash him too seriously, and he has to play the horses he's got. If he was really that good, and Keefe was really THAT happy, Nylander would be on the first line. He's not. Never really has been. Not for Babcock, not for Keefe.

And don't think the team captain won't pull him aside and straighten him out at some point. If his play is negatively affecting the team, or Tavares' production personally, you better believe he'll be told to smarten up. That absolutely IS the job of the team captain.

 

[Fun For All]

Watching the first 7 games, on the whole many would say Nylander has been consistently out-played game in, game out, by Marner, Tavares, Matthews, Hyman, Vesey and Kerfoot. And that has been while playing significant minutes with top five forwards and on the PP. My comment on his points and how he got them was clear above. For all that, he's sitting at a +/- of (-2)! Kind of tells a story on performance doesn't it.

Everyone of his supporters screams "He's a skill player! That's what he does! That's his game!' Well, Sidney Crosby, Geno Malkin, John Tavares, Austin Matthews, Ovie, Mitch Marner, Scheifele, MacKinnon, Brad Marchand are all skill players too, but they certainly have a grittier game than Willy. And better defensively too. Changing his game so he stays longer in his own zone and covers his side/man is not going to affect his points production. Learning to finish a check more than once every 10 games is not going to change his points production. Toning down the stick check only model of forechecking is not going to change his points production. But those things may help him grow into a better, more well-rounded player and less of a liability to his linemates and his team when he's on the ice.

Don't forget, there are five other Leafs on the ice with Willy. When he's missing his man cause he's cherry picking at the red line, going for a long skate after weak check attempts, flailing around with his stick, they're essentially short-handed out there. Believe me, they notice.

Who knows if Keefe is really happy with his play? Publicly, he's not going to bash him too seriously, and he has to play the horses he's got. If he was really that good, and Keefe was really THAT happy, Nylander would be on the first line. He's not. Never really has been. Not for Babcock, not for Keefe.

And don't think the team captain won't pull him aside and straighten him out at some point. If his play is negatively affecting the team, or Tavares' production personally, you better believe he'll be told to smarten up. That absolutely IS the job of the team captain.

Here is my response to your rather lengthy post...
-I hardly think it’s fair to say that Vesey, Kerfoot and Hyman have been better than Nylander
-plus minus stat has many variables to it, Nylander being -2 and another being even doesn’t mean he’s been dogshit compared to the other guy, the story it tells is incomplete and inaccurate
-you want him to play grittier, he’s not Terry O’Reilly, he doesn’t play that style
-you named 9 players comparing him too, all of them are the best players in the NHL, I have not seen anyone say he is one of the best players in the NHL...that was an unfair comparison
-if you don’t like players that don’t finish checks, soft defending, cheat on the wrong side of the puck, you should watch those other 9 more carefully, you’d probably be disappointed in some of them
-what line is the Leafs first line, the one centred by Tavares or Matthews...if Keefe thought he was garbage he wouldn’t play on either
-Tavares isn’t going to pull him aside and “straighten” him out because there is no need too, he’s been one of their better guys
-captains don’t “pull players aside” and “straighten” them out, that’s the coaches job...captains doing that just get told to fuck off...it’s not minor hockey with bad coaches

 

[John Wick]

Here is my response to your rather lengthy post...
-I hardly think it’s fair to say that Vesey, Kerfoot and Hyman have been better than Nylander (we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.)
-plus minus stat has many variables to it, Nylander being -2 and another being even doesn’t mean he’s been dogshit compared to the other guy, the story it tells is incomplete and inaccurate (no one said he's dog shit, but for the minutes he plays, and the fact he's supposed to be helping them win, it's a fair indicator)
-you want him to play grittier, he’s not Terry O’Reilly, he doesn’t play that style (grittier doesn't mean 'Goon'.)
-you named 9 players comparing him too, all of them are the best players in the NHL, I have not seen anyone say he is one of the best players in the NHL...that was an unfair comparison (I dunno, his fans on this board sure talk like he's one of the best in the NHL. Sometimes though, the inconvenience of truth can be a double edge sword)
-if you don’t like players that don’t finish checks, soft defending, cheat on the wrong side of the puck, you should watch those other 9 more carefully, you’d probably be disappointed in some of them (true, but no where near as frequently as I'm disappointed in Nylander)
-what line is the Leafs first line, the one centred by Tavares or Matthews...if Keefe thought he was garbage he wouldn’t play on either (at $6M a season, he's gonna play - Dubas and Shanny will see to that.)
-Tavares isn’t going to pull him aside and “straighten” him out because there is no need too, he’s been one of their better guys (again, we'll simply disagree here)
-captains don’t “pull players aside” and “straighten” them out, that’s the coaches job...captains doing that just get told to fuck off...it’s not minor hockey with bad coaches (Really, you think guys like Messier, Clarke, Potvin, Yzerman, Belliveau, and Ray Bourque got told to fuck off by other teammates? Sure they did. )

Look, I'm not saying he's the devil incarnate. He's talented guy who I believe has some significant flaws in his game that could be adjusted to make him a more effective all-round player. But like every other Monday morning QB I'm just another hack living vicariously through those who can, when I in fact couldn't quite. It's all fun...

 

[Fun For All]

Look, I'm not saying he's the devil incarnate. He's talented guy who I believe has some significant flaws in his game that could be adjusted to make him a more effective all-round player. But like every other Monday morning QB I'm just another hack living vicariously through those who can, when I in fact couldn't quite. It's all fun...

And I’m not saying the league should retire his jersey and name an award after him...I’m saying there significant flaws in the argument you are making.

 

[Darts]

The late John Ferguson would have straightened him out.

 

[Fun For All]

The late John Ferguson would have straightened him out.

John Ferguson wasn't a captain...his job was to straighten the other team out.

 

[Darts]

John Ferguson wasn't a captain...his job was to straighten the other team out.

Yes, I know he wasn't a captain. That didn't stop him from straightening out his own teammates. He didn't suffer fools gladly.

"intimidated as many of us in the dressing room as he did opponents on the ice. You wouldn't dare give less than your best if you wore the same shirt as John Ferguson." "source: Jean Beliveau

John Ferguson left lasting impression | NHL.com

Canadiens forward, who died nine years ago, slammed door shut on many opponents

www.nhl.com

 

[Fun For All]

Yes, I know he wasn't a captain. That didn't stop him from straightening out his own teammates. He didn't suffer fools gladly.

"intimidated as many of us in the dressing room as he did opponents on the ice. You wouldn't dare give less than your best if you wore the same shirt as John Ferguson." "source: Jean Beliveau

John Ferguson left lasting impression | NHL.com

Canadiens forward, who died nine years ago, slammed door shut on many opponents

www.nhl.com

View attachment 31978

A lot has changed in dressing rooms since 1968.