a bad situation which needs a resolution...help

[RTRD]

Responses...

That's an easy one to answer. Actions speak louder than words.

Which suggests that everyone always acts on what they belief to be the truth, versus what is easiest, most expeditious, least costly, etc.

I disagree. I would argue that in a situation like this a person ultimate actions is NOT definitive proof of what they believe / believed was the case. In other words, just because things go "badly" for a person post knowing their spouse was unfaithful, or even because they react badly, does not mean they would have preferred to not know, or that they would have been better of not knowing.

If I have a terminal disease, I am not going to react well to finding out...and that reaction will PROBABLY include denial (you know, the seven steps and all that). That doesn't mean I would have preferred to not know, and die without knowing what killed me, or without making proper preparations.

Accordingly, no matter how you "observe" someone react to this news of their spouse being a cheat, you cannot judge what they ultimately do with that information...be that external "actions" that you did not observe, or internal "actions" that you have no clue about.

Huh? Where did this come from? Were we even talking about love? Or was this some kind of ad hominem argument? Doesn't matter.

Because you seemed to think that anyone who doesn't believe their wife will cheat on them is an irrational fool...suggesting that you have a general non belief in the concepts of hope and faith.

Should I guess that you did?!

I did.

(Although you couldn't be more wrong about my sports background, past or current. I'd be curious as to what made you leap to this particular conclusion. It might provide some insight as to the judgments you've made about some of the other people (friends, etc) mentioned in your posts).

It was an admitted guess....that I based on your implication that believing you will succeed in the face of statistical odds against you is irrational. My point was that in NON-RANDOM situations...like a baseball batter at the plate...like a hockey defense man taking a shot from the point....one's approach to the situation has an absolute impact on the outcome...and a inability to believe you will succeed it certainly a recipe for failure...thus those who are successful believe they will succeed. A basketball player always believes his next shot will go in (else he wouldn't take it), even though it has a less than 50/50 change of doing so.

By the same token...it is hard to imagine a successful marriage between people who believe it is going to fail...and hence I would not call a guy who didn't think his wife would cheat (in lieu of obvious signs in advance that she would) "irrational".

The point is that believing you might succeed is not the same as expecting to succeed.

While I agree with this statement on its own...I disagree with your premise. People get married EXPECTING IT TO SUCCEED...not thinking it might.

And I have seen plenty of hockey players display absolute shock that a shot didn't go in...because they thought THAT shot was on a line directly to the back of the net. Do they do this with every shot? No...they don't, because experience has in fact taught them that the majority of shots don't go in...and it has also taught them which shots are more likely to go in then not.

However, most people don't take 150 marriages a year...don't have the benefit of having been through multiple marriages before....and by definition, any marriage that has ended (freeing the person to marry again) was a "failure", so even with that experience they STILL would not have much data in which to make an objective decision about how successful their marriage will be.

Despite all that however, they have reason to think their marriage WILL succeed because 30% do. And they are not irrational to think that a best effort by both parties will put them in that 30%.

Setting aside your argument that your close friends would want to know, in your judgement would they be better off knowing, and if so, why?

Yes, because they could then act accordingly, whatever that might be. I will always firmly believe that information is invaluable, and that as long as the information is accurate and relevant, there is no such thing as 'too much". The more you know to base a decision on, the better decision you can make.

 

[Bud Plug]

I will always firmly believe that information is invaluable, and that as long as the information is accurate and relevant, there is no such thing as 'too much". The more you know to base a decision on, the better decision you can make.

Interesting.

Compare your statement to what many people say about meeting their personal idols. Many say they wish they wouldn't have got to know the real person, because the idol didn't live up to the image/legend. My take on that phenomenon is that people prefer to hold a falsely positive opinion of others who are important to them, and who tie into their system of values, rather than water down that image with reality. It isn't much of a stretch to apply this logic to what you'd like to know about your SO, especially given the consequences of ending a relationship.

Secondly, your principle assumes your friend is making a decision. There'd be no decision to make, in most cases, if the information wasn't passed on.

I think your approach would force your friends to make decisions they wouldn't otherwise even be contemplating. Since most people seem to think the expected response to infidelity is separation, the decision that gets made is usually costly, unproductive, and unnecessary.

 

[RTRD]

I would consider that...

Compare your statement to what many people say about meeting their personal idols. Many say they wish they wouldn't have gotten to know the real person, because the idol didn't live up to the image/legend. My take on that phenomenon is that people prefer to hold a falsely positive opinion of others who are important to them, and who tie into their system of values, rather than water down that image with reality. It isn't much of a stretch to apply this logic to what you'd like to know about your SO, especially given the consequences of ending a relationship.

...absurd.

I would want to know every possible relevant thing about someone I was trusting my physical emotional financial and psychological well being with. My spouse isn't some damn "idol", they are my life partner.

Are you married? Ever been?

Secondly, your principle assumes your friend is making a decision. There'd be no decision to make, in most cases, if the information wasn't passed on.

Every day...consciously or unconsciously...you make a decision to stay in a marriage and honor your vows, being the best spouse you can be...or not.

You often make decision...financial decisions...career decisions....based on assumptions about your marriage....decisions that are made assuming your marriage is strong and going forward, not that your wife has a "slave" on the side and will probably one day become bored with the vanilla lifestyle you have to offer her (using a real world example I am familiar with).

Again, I am compelled to ask...are you married? Have you ever been?

I think your approach would force your friends to make decisions they wouldn't otherwise even be contemplating.

Already addressed.

Since most people seem to think the expected response to infidelity is separation, the decision that gets made is usually costly, unproductive, and unnecessary.

Says who? You?

Just because you don't see a problem with your wife fucking around means everybody else should just get over themselves??

You seem to be assuming that the dots never connect...that the fact that your wife is playing anal attack games with the guy from the office has no bearing on either how she feels about her marriage now, or how she will treat it in the future (btw...all this would apply to men as well).

You ask MOST people who have had infidelity in their marriage, and they will tell you they can with some vague accuracy identify when their spouse starting cheating, because they became neglectful on some level of the marriage. One partner is "all there" (in their opinion) and the other is not. This is not equitable.

What is unproductive about ending a relationship that one of the two people appears to value less than the other, and freeing yourself up for one that is more satisfying?

I asked about if you believed love was a fallacy because your thought process seems very clinical and detached, and not at all rooted in how people REALLY feel. You seem to feel like because a person emotions sometimes led to less than optimally efficient and effective behaviors, they are not entitled to them.

I honestly think fidelity is overrated. I always have. But that does not mean I think COMMITMENT is overrated. And most people who have suffered through infidelity in their marriage will tell you they saw the COMMITMENT waning before they learned of the infidelity.

 

[SupahotGavin]

OK... decision made.

I appreciate all the interesting perspectives, both public and those sent via PM. I’m generally the type to look the other way in most complicated, personal matters. Perhaps it’s my nature to avoid confrontation, or maybe it’s just my easy going ‘live and let live’ credo…

All of this has been very stirring for me personally. I have been very self-reflective through this predicament thinking not only about my friend, but choices I have made when it comes to fidelity/infidelity. In some ways I think this is a carma-like payback for all my past fuckups. None of my own transgressions were like this situation before me (not even close), but it still leaves me not proud of my actions or the consequences.

This has all been surreal, almost like a scripted movie. Would you believe I got an email from this guy today asking me if I wanted to join him at the local pub Friday at 10pm? This is SOOO fucked up…what are the chances? He invited a few friends that live in the neighborhood too so I’m thinking I will ask him to meet him an hour earlier and see if we can have a private moment somewhere. So there you have it the G-man will have his first Dr.Phil moment. I have to say something.

Thanks again everybody.


Cheers,


Gavin (feeling not so hot)…




PS… If you are going to cheat on your SO for god sakes do it privately so the rest of us can sleep at night!
PPS... Fortunately I'll be in a bar but I might need to get laid after this too.

 

[smiley1437]

PPS... Fortunately I'll be in a bar but I might need to get laid after this too.

Make sure she's married

 

[y2kmark]

So ...

I know I need to make a decision one way or the other G

Make it. Noboby else can make it for you.

 

[Anynym]

I'd have to bring it up in conversation over drinks that you were in Calgary a couple weeks ago (or whenever), and saw someone that looked exactly like her. Give enough specifics (the bar, the time) in the flow of general conversation that let her either volunteer that yes, that was her, or to claim that no, it must have been someone that looked like her. Or she may not say anything. Don't dwell on the story, just put enough facts on the table, move on, and gracefully make your exit saying good night. Let them have whatever conversation they may need to have in private. They may respect you for it; they may treat you with disdain for bringing it up. But they're the ones who have to deal with it (and they don't owe you any explanations).

You don't have to pick a fight, and you don't have to hide anything from anyone. But Fidelity would require truthfulness between partners.

 

[syn]

PS… If you are going to cheat on your SO for god sakes do it privately so the rest of us can sleep at night!
PPS... Fortunately I'll be in a bar but I might need to get laid after this too.

hmmm ... it looks like you may be able to drown your sorrows at radiohead concert now ...

 

[Angela@Mirage]

u kill me!!!!!!! lol lol lol

 

[Angela@Mirage]

u seem like a pretty stand up guy.

 

[Angela@Mirage]

just kind of give him a "heads up" i would

 

[Angela@Mirage]

that sounds like entrapment. there r investigation agencies for that sort of thing. leave it to them.

 

[Angela@Mirage]

that was my original thought, but i have a great understanding of all fun-loving men.

 

[Angela@Mirage]

u hit on the noggen!!!!!!!! to b monogamous n this highly sexuallized world we live n< is total torture and not practical. at all. i tel people from the get go: i am not monogamous. date me or hate me

 

[red]

I appreciate all the interesting perspectives, both public and those sent via PM. I’m generally the type to look the other way in most complicated, personal matters. Perhaps it’s my nature to avoid confrontation, or maybe it’s just my easy going ‘live and let live’ credo…

All of this has been very stirring for me personally. I have been very self-reflective through this predicament thinking not only about my friend, but choices I have made when it comes to fidelity/infidelity. In some ways I think this is a carma-like payback for all my past fuckups. None of my own transgressions were like this situation before me (not even close), but it still leaves me not proud of my actions or the consequences.

This has all been surreal, almost like a scripted movie. Would you believe I got an email from this guy today asking me if I wanted to join him at the local pub Friday at 10pm? This is SOOO fucked up…what are the chances? He invited a few friends that live in the neighborhood too so I’m thinking I will ask him to meet him an hour earlier and see if we can have a private moment somewhere. So there you have it the G-man will have his first Dr.Phil moment. I have to say something.

Thanks again everybody.


Cheers,


Gavin (feeling not so hot)…




PS… If you are going to cheat on your SO for god sakes do it privately so the rest of us can sleep at night!
PPS... Fortunately I'll be in a bar but I might need to get laid after this too.

good luck to you and your friend.

 

[Bud Plug]

...absurd.

I would want to know every possible relevant thing about someone I was trusting my physical emotional financial and psychological well being with. My spouse isn't some damn "idol", they are my life partner.

Are you married? Ever been?




Every day...consciously or unconsciously...you make a decision to stay in a marriage and honor your vows, being the best spouse you can be...or not.

You often make decision...financial decisions...career decisions....based on assumptions about your marriage....decisions that are made assuming your marriage is strong and going forward, not that your wife has a "slave" on the side and will probably one day become bored with the vanilla lifestyle you have to offer her (using a real world example I am familiar with).

Again, I am compelled to ask...are you married? Have you ever been?



Already addressed.



Says who? You?

Just because you don't see a problem with your wife fucking around means everybody else should just get over themselves??

You seem to be assuming that the dots never connect...that the fact that your wife is playing anal attack games with the guy from the office has no bearing on either how she feels about her marriage now, or how she will treat it in the future (btw...all this would apply to men as well).

You ask MOST people who have had infidelity in their marriage, and they will tell you they can with some vague accuracy identify when their spouse starting cheating, because they became neglectful on some level of the marriage. One partner is "all there" (in their opinion) and the other is not. This is not equitable.

What is unproductive about ending a relationship that one of the two people appears to value less than the other, and freeing yourself up for one that is more satisfying?

I asked about if you believed love was a fallacy because your thought process seems very clinical and detached, and not at all rooted in how people REALLY feel. You seem to feel like because a person emotions sometimes led to less than optimally efficient and effective behaviors, they are not entitled to them.

I honestly think fidelity is overrated. I always have. But that does not mean I think COMMITMENT is overrated. And most people who have suffered through infidelity in their marriage will tell you they saw the COMMITMENT waning before they learned of the infidelity.

Let's step back a little bit and look at your scorecard.

You've made three unfounded and incorrect assumptions in the course of arguing with me:

1. That I don't believe in love,
2. That I've never played competitive sports, and
3. That I must not be married.

You're clearly the kind of person who makes wild speculations instead of challenging and testing your own perception of the world. Obviously, I am not having any success convincing you of my view, but you really ought to reflect on your own reasoning process.

Lastly, your most recent post reveals that you think divorce/separation can be a productive decision. Short of violence being the reason, I strongly disagree. It would appear that this view colours your opinion as to the merit of telling a friend about infidelity. Since you appear to understand the difference between sexual fidelity and commitment, I assume you can easily see how spouses can live together, yet not be romantically involved, and why they might choose to do so. As you like to think you're rooted in reality, you should recognize just how common this situation is.

SupahotGavin appears to have decided to say something to his friend. Let's just see how it all turns out. Hopefully, he'll let us know.

 

[RTRD]

I...

You're clearly the kind of person who makes wild speculations instead of challenging and testing your own perception of the world.

...don't need to. I believe what I believe "challenging and testing your perceptions of the world" is an exercise for people who DO NOT know what the believe and are looking for something. In other words, it is the sort of thing a guy would do to convince himself everyone should be perfectly content with their spouses fucking around.

Two of those three assumption I made were because your POV is so out of touch with how REGULAR NORMAL NOT SO CONVINCED THEY ARE SO FUCKING ENLIGHTENED people think I was trying to grasp at how you might have ended up so far out of the mainstream. I got it now. You are just superior to all of us everyday folk.

Obviously, I am not having any success convincing you of my view, but you really ought to reflect on your own reasoning process.

Addressed

Lastly, your most recent post reveals that you think divorce/separation can be a productive decision.

Absolutely. I suspect you'd find at least one person in most divorced couples who feels the same way.

Short of violence being the reason, I strongly disagree.

We get that.

It would appear that this view colours your opinion as to the merit of telling a friend about infidelity.

What colors my opinion is what I said..I know them well enough to know that they would want to know. I know you are a higher being and all that, but really...some of us actually both know our friends and don't think of their perspectives as banal.

MY friends would want to know...hence I would tell them. The "merits" are not for me to judge...it ain't my marriage.

Since you appear to understand the difference between sexual fidelity and commitment,

I do. Unfortunately, I am PAINFULLY aware.

I assume you can easily see how spouses can live together, yet not be romantically involved, and why they might choose to do so.

Yes. They might also chose NOT to do so. They get to do that, right?

As you like to think you're rooted in reality, you should recognize just how common this situation is.

And your point here is? That because some people are good with it, everybody should be?

SupahotGavin appears to have decided to say something to his friend. Let's just see how it all turns out. Hopefully, he'll let us know.

What difference does it make how it turns out? He doesn't own the outcome...that is to be determined by the two people involved. The OUTCOME is an irrelevant factor in the decision to disclose...if SHE knew her fiancee wouldn't think much of her fucking around she should have kept her legs closed. The fact that this is about to come to light is a risk she obviously decided to take. The messenger bears no responsibility for the results of the message...her actions are going to have an outcome - what that is going to be is TBD...but Gavin doesn't own responsibility for what she did...and he has decided he DOES have a responsibility to give his friend opportunity to decide how HE feels about it (which I agree with).

 

[Bud Plug]

The messenger bears no responsibility for the results of the message...her actions are going to have an outcome - what that is going to be is TBD...but Gavin doesn't own responsibility for what she did...and he has decided he DOES have a responsibility to give his friend opportunity to decide how HE feels about it (which I agree with).

This statement tells me that you still don't get it. A messenger is sent by someone else to deliver a message. No one is sending Gavin. He can choose to deliver a message, or not. That choice is the question, not the answer!

p.s. Thanks for the laugh. I haven't heard the "you think you know it all" nonsensical argument since high school. Very "retro" of you!

 

[RTRD]

You are welcome...

This statement tells me that you still don't get it. A messenger is sent by someone else to deliver a message. No one is sending Gavin. He can choose to deliver a message, or not. That choice is the question, not the answer!

p.s. Thanks for the laugh. I haven't heard the "you think you know it all" nonsensical argument since high school. Very "retro" of you!

..and I am glad I can help.

BTW...I "get it". I don't agree. That is possible, you know.

Of course you don't.

 

[red]

...
The messenger bears no responsibility for the results of the message...her actions are going to have an outcome - what that is going to be is TBD...but Gavin doesn't own responsibility for what she did...and he has decided he DOES have a responsibility to give his friend opportunity to decide how HE feels about it (which I agree with).

While I can appreciate your comments, and he obviously does feel obligated to tell his friend and of course thats his decision, but I think its wrong to say that Gavin will have no responsibility for his message. Bud Plug is right in that Gavin has chosen to intervene and deliver this message, so he bears responsibility for the impact on his friend. which is different than whether he should or should not tell.

I also wonder whether his friend knows about the situation, had reconciled with his fiance and will now be upset that others know about it. ie loss of face.