a bad situation which needs a resolution...help
- Thread starter SupahotGavin
- Start date
Yes...
...that is correct.
I posted about this once, years ago, it comes up so often (during blood tests and the like) that hospitals actually have a protocol for dealing with it.
Ask any ER doctor who has been around the block and he will tell you that at least once he has been in a life or death (or close to it) situation that required SOME LEVEL of parental involvement....and then had to tell with the issue that the presumed dad was in fact not.
james t kirk said:
...that is correct.
I posted about this once, years ago, it comes up so often (during blood tests and the like) that hospitals actually have a protocol for dealing with it.
Ask any ER doctor who has been around the block and he will tell you that at least once he has been in a life or death (or close to it) situation that required SOME LEVEL of parental involvement....and then had to tell with the issue that the presumed dad was in fact not.
Its the bro code. Since you have known this fellow for years and he now wants to get married not knowing his would be wife plays the field, you are doing him and yourself a disservice by not letting him know.
You could also put her on the spot saying something to the effect "hey I briefly saw you at the xxxxx in Calgary on xxxx" and leave it open-ended and see what she says (maybe this woman in Calgary is a clone).
You could also put her on the spot saying something to the effect "hey I briefly saw you at the xxxxx in Calgary on xxxx" and leave it open-ended and see what she says (maybe this woman in Calgary is a clone).
Another true story.
I used to go to a tarot card reader, i know what you are all thinking but she was the real deal.She knew all that was going to happen to me and all the people around me.I was getting a reading done from her and she starts to tell me about my brother and his girlfriend.She says that she is not the girl for him and he will have a daughter from her and 2 years later she will want a divorce.
I go to my parents and my mother asks me what the woman told me today.I told her about my brother and his girlfriend and what was told to me and we have a discussion.It ends up that i will not tell him and it might just work out. Well dont you know it about 2 years later he is going through a divorce and is getting screwed royally by the bitch.
To this day i fully regret that i did not warn him about what was told to me. If he is truly your friend you should tell him so that he is at least aware of what has gone on before he says " i do " and then it might be too late.
I used to go to a tarot card reader, i know what you are all thinking but she was the real deal.She knew all that was going to happen to me and all the people around me.I was getting a reading done from her and she starts to tell me about my brother and his girlfriend.She says that she is not the girl for him and he will have a daughter from her and 2 years later she will want a divorce.
I go to my parents and my mother asks me what the woman told me today.I told her about my brother and his girlfriend and what was told to me and we have a discussion.It ends up that i will not tell him and it might just work out. Well dont you know it about 2 years later he is going through a divorce and is getting screwed royally by the bitch.
To this day i fully regret that i did not warn him about what was told to me. If he is truly your friend you should tell him so that he is at least aware of what has gone on before he says " i do " and then it might be too late.
Okay.......MLAM said:
Well, perhaps she's moonlighting as an escort. You know, to earn some extra money to buy her husband-to-be, whom she adores and loves more than life itself, a beautiful wedding gift she could not otherwise afford.... and telling him would ruin the surprise!
If he was already married I would say either stay out of it, or tell her. However, hard as it may be to swallow, he isn't married yet, and you could be saving him from a doomed relationship.
So tell him.
If he was married already, who knows, maybe this is what she has to do to stay in the relationship, and I am all about people doign what they need to do, so none of your business.
A month before the wedding is too soon for her to be bored with the relationship. That spells trouble.
So tell him.
If he was married already, who knows, maybe this is what she has to do to stay in the relationship, and I am all about people doign what they need to do, so none of your business.
A month before the wedding is too soon for her to be bored with the relationship. That spells trouble.
Minority Opinion
I've read all the posts in this thread and it's shocking to me (given that this is anonymous TERB and not some religious board) how lopsided the balance is in favour of telling the friend. I couldn't disagree more strongly. In fact, I think that telling the friend is the same sort of terrible advice that helps to account for the rising percentage of married couples who split up (yes, I understand that in the original post the couple are fiances, not married).
It's interesting to take a hard look at where this point of view seems to come from. Some of the justifications include:
Unfortunately, none of these reasons hold water.
There is no reason to think that your life will be any better if you show more loyalty to other men than to women. Your male friends will let you down as well, just in different ways. It makes sense to be loyal to anyone who will reward that loyalty (by loyalty in kind, or in some other way). Otherwise, this "code" is nonsense. Not surprising, because all "codes" are nonsense (and, consequently, no code is consistently followed by anyone!).
As to "putting your friend's happiness before your own", you have to be prepared to make a lot of assumptions before you can presume to know what would make another person happier or less happy. People are quick to say "I'd want to know if I was in his position", but life experience has shown me that nothing could be further from the truth for most people. Most people don't want to know the "ugly truths" which, if made public, would force them into action to save face, compared to the stability of simply carrying on with their lifes as they "seem" to be. You can't draw this observation out of a survey. In a survey, people say what they think is the socially expected answer. In a survey, most people strongly disapprove of extramarital sex (I don't like to use the word "cheating", because it's only cheating if the other person is meeting their end of the marriage "bargain"), but most people engage in it (which tells you their true feelings about it). In a survey, most people agree that honesty is essential to maintaining a relationship. In the real world, no one is completely honest with their SO (and it's a good thing they aren't, or the divorce numbers would be even worse!). My theory is that, implicitly, we all know our partners are not our perfect "soul mates" and that they are flawed. We don't want to be confronted with those flaws and forced to recognize we made a "mistake" in making a long term commitment to someone who can't fulfill our lifelong needs. In short, your friends don't want to know their SO is stepping out on them.
Lastly, if your friend blames you for not ratting out their SO because they ultimately find out you knew, your friend has some serious personal responsibility problems. No one is responsible for monitoring his relationship with his SO. That's his problem. Chances are that any friend like that will blame others for all his problems. Some friend!
To sum up, the only good advice is to say nothing. Telling the friend "to save him the heartache" sounds nice, but in reality just amounts to trying to "look good" without regard for the reality we all implicitly acknowledge in connection with sexual relationships.
I've read all the posts in this thread and it's shocking to me (given that this is anonymous TERB and not some religious board) how lopsided the balance is in favour of telling the friend. I couldn't disagree more strongly. In fact, I think that telling the friend is the same sort of terrible advice that helps to account for the rising percentage of married couples who split up (yes, I understand that in the original post the couple are fiances, not married).
It's interesting to take a hard look at where this point of view seems to come from. Some of the justifications include:
- The "Bros before Hos" code (btw, who ever made up this code, and what's the purpose of it?)
- You'd be putting your friend's interests in avoiding future heartache and other misery ahead of your own discomfort (or other adverse consequences) in ratting out the "cheater"
- Your friend will blame you for his misery if things go south and he finds out you knew she was a cheater
Unfortunately, none of these reasons hold water.
There is no reason to think that your life will be any better if you show more loyalty to other men than to women. Your male friends will let you down as well, just in different ways. It makes sense to be loyal to anyone who will reward that loyalty (by loyalty in kind, or in some other way). Otherwise, this "code" is nonsense. Not surprising, because all "codes" are nonsense (and, consequently, no code is consistently followed by anyone!).
As to "putting your friend's happiness before your own", you have to be prepared to make a lot of assumptions before you can presume to know what would make another person happier or less happy. People are quick to say "I'd want to know if I was in his position", but life experience has shown me that nothing could be further from the truth for most people. Most people don't want to know the "ugly truths" which, if made public, would force them into action to save face, compared to the stability of simply carrying on with their lifes as they "seem" to be. You can't draw this observation out of a survey. In a survey, people say what they think is the socially expected answer. In a survey, most people strongly disapprove of extramarital sex (I don't like to use the word "cheating", because it's only cheating if the other person is meeting their end of the marriage "bargain"), but most people engage in it (which tells you their true feelings about it). In a survey, most people agree that honesty is essential to maintaining a relationship. In the real world, no one is completely honest with their SO (and it's a good thing they aren't, or the divorce numbers would be even worse!). My theory is that, implicitly, we all know our partners are not our perfect "soul mates" and that they are flawed. We don't want to be confronted with those flaws and forced to recognize we made a "mistake" in making a long term commitment to someone who can't fulfill our lifelong needs. In short, your friends don't want to know their SO is stepping out on them.
Lastly, if your friend blames you for not ratting out their SO because they ultimately find out you knew, your friend has some serious personal responsibility problems. No one is responsible for monitoring his relationship with his SO. That's his problem. Chances are that any friend like that will blame others for all his problems. Some friend!
To sum up, the only good advice is to say nothing. Telling the friend "to save him the heartache" sounds nice, but in reality just amounts to trying to "look good" without regard for the reality we all implicitly acknowledge in connection with sexual relationships.
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Bud Plug, while I agree with you that the "bro's before ho's" thing is not germaine, I disagree with your assertion the OP keep quiet because the friend might be better off or happier not knowing. Friendship is not only about happiness - a true and close friend must also be prepared to deal with life's disappointments and break bad news if necessary. Yes, ignorance is bliss, but that does not mean that in all circumstances we should strive to protect our close friends from harsh truths.
I think you owe it to your friend to make sure that he's aware of this behavior and that he deals with it. He and she have to have some sort of implicit understanding about whether this is OK or not.
In that respect I don't agree with BP's point, I agree relationships usually look publically better than they really are privately, but there is some honest soul searching that buddy has to do about this.
However I agree that there's a risk of upsetting the applecart, that he may already know deep down that this goes on, but is not admitting it, and that somehow this means he's OK with this--but when you come along and show him proof things will change.
In that respect I wonder if you can pull this off:
You are 100% certain it was her, but you could pretend that you aren't as sure. Tell buddy that you think you saw her, it really looked a lot like her, but you couldn't completely be sure. Give him enough information that it really does implicate her, but at the same time, deny certainty that it was her, and be ready to take him at his word when he comes back to you later and says, "Thanks for the warning, but yeah, I spoke to her, and it wasn't her."
After that convince yoruself it wasn't her.
I don't know if this will work, but if their relationship depends on him lying to himself, say, this gives him a way to go on lying to himself.
At the same time it'll make sure he asks her the right questions and they have it out between the two of them.
In that respect I don't agree with BP's point, I agree relationships usually look publically better than they really are privately, but there is some honest soul searching that buddy has to do about this.
However I agree that there's a risk of upsetting the applecart, that he may already know deep down that this goes on, but is not admitting it, and that somehow this means he's OK with this--but when you come along and show him proof things will change.
In that respect I wonder if you can pull this off:
You are 100% certain it was her, but you could pretend that you aren't as sure. Tell buddy that you think you saw her, it really looked a lot like her, but you couldn't completely be sure. Give him enough information that it really does implicate her, but at the same time, deny certainty that it was her, and be ready to take him at his word when he comes back to you later and says, "Thanks for the warning, but yeah, I spoke to her, and it wasn't her."
After that convince yoruself it wasn't her.
I don't know if this will work, but if their relationship depends on him lying to himself, say, this gives him a way to go on lying to himself.
At the same time it'll make sure he asks her the right questions and they have it out between the two of them.
This sentence right here...
"In short, your friends don't want to know their SO is stepping out on them."
...verifies that you are simply projecting your values on to other people.
Most of what you are saying is true...clinically...logically. But it has little to do with how most people feel.
I have never met a man who would not want to know that his SO was stepping out on him. What he might decide to do with that information will vary from man to man...but I have NEVER met one who would not want to have it.
And while you might think this represents some favoring of fellow men over women, that isn't the reason behind my advice at all...my is motivated by my loyalty and relationship with my FRIEND...someone who would want to know this information (and I know this because I know him well enough to know it...else he would not be someone I would call a friend). Again, what he does with the information will be his decision, and he might in fact deny, and terminate his relationship with me. My commitment to HIM...as HIS friend...was to tell him.
"My theory is that, implicitly, we all know our partners are not our perfect "soul mates" and that they are flawed. We don't want to be confronted with those flaws and forced to recognize we made a "mistake" in making a long term commitment to someone who can't fulfill our lifelong needs. In short, your friends don't want to know their SO is stepping out on them."
That is YOUR theory. Here in the REAL world, people expect monogamy, even if they don't provide it themselves, or recognize that it is unlikely. They EXPECT IT, and hence want to know when it isn't present so they can THEN decide how to proceed.
Bud Plug said:
"In short, your friends don't want to know their SO is stepping out on them."
...verifies that you are simply projecting your values on to other people.
Most of what you are saying is true...clinically...logically. But it has little to do with how most people feel.
I have never met a man who would not want to know that his SO was stepping out on him. What he might decide to do with that information will vary from man to man...but I have NEVER met one who would not want to have it.
And while you might think this represents some favoring of fellow men over women, that isn't the reason behind my advice at all...my is motivated by my loyalty and relationship with my FRIEND...someone who would want to know this information (and I know this because I know him well enough to know it...else he would not be someone I would call a friend). Again, what he does with the information will be his decision, and he might in fact deny, and terminate his relationship with me. My commitment to HIM...as HIS friend...was to tell him.
"My theory is that, implicitly, we all know our partners are not our perfect "soul mates" and that they are flawed. We don't want to be confronted with those flaws and forced to recognize we made a "mistake" in making a long term commitment to someone who can't fulfill our lifelong needs. In short, your friends don't want to know their SO is stepping out on them."
That is YOUR theory. Here in the REAL world, people expect monogamy, even if they don't provide it themselves, or recognize that it is unlikely. They EXPECT IT, and hence want to know when it isn't present so they can THEN decide how to proceed.
I f he is your real friend you will tell him.You owe her nothing, you owe him the truth as that is what friends are . People who tell you the truth no matter what.Tell the guy, he deserves it.
MLAM said:
Almost. I'm extrapolating from my own point of view and my observations of the many people I've met in my life (several of whom were in these circumstances). I'm stating an opinion, which of course reflects my point of view.
MLAM said:
While your statement has a theoretical possibility of being true, I think that it's highly unlikely to be true if you've met very many men of varying ages. However, to really appreciate my point, you have to distinguish between what people say (because of public appearances) and the way they really feel. My post acknowledges this distinction, but puts more emphasis on the latter.
MLAM said:
1. I didn't attribute the "Bros before Hos" rationale to all posters (or to you in particular), but it was clearly adopted as the rationale of some.
2. Assuming that you have more than one friend, I'm willing to bet: a) you don't know all of their views on this topic as well as you imagine, and b) not all of them feel the same way. However, I continue to trust my own observation that most people really would prefer not to know (and/or be better off not knowing).
MLAM said:
1. In our society (as opposed to some others) we expect the "appearance" of monogamy. Expecting monogamy itself would require a rational person to be in massive denial about the reality of how commonplace extramarital sex is.
2. It makes an enormous difference whether someone finds out on their own that their SO is stepping out, or whether others inform them. In the latter circumstances, the person receiving the news is forced to confront the "public" aspect of the news, which usually drives people to different choices than if an issue is completely private.
Response(s)...
Well...ok...you didn't sound very much like it was an opinion...you were sounding like "this is what is the case and you are are just too neanderthal in your ways to understand the truth" but of course you are entitled to your point of view and encouraged to express it.
I am curious to know how it is you are able to discern what people "really feel" if this is some far removed from what they say.
I have more than one friend, though I will admit that I toss that word around a lot less casually than most people. I know there views on this topic as well as they have shared them with me during the course of some very heart to heart conversations that have been a result of the fact the 2 of the 3 have had infidelity be a part of their marriages.
Now...how you think that makes for a less valid case than your observations and judgments about how people might be better off I am not clear on, but i think there is a reason why most of the people who have posted (which is not a scientific sample by any means, but...) are of a differing opinion.
They believe their friends would want to know because they either a) Know their friends (my position) or b) feel that THEY would want to know. Now...there is no question that b) represents a projection...but that projection is no less valid than you deciding what people really think and feel or what is actually best for them based on observation,.
You probably think love represents massive denial about the difference between true emotion and the need to procreate and the practice benefits of partnerships in perpetuating the species, don't you?
It is PERFECTLY RATIONAL to understand how commonplace extramarital sex is while still BELIEVING that YOUR spouse is one of those 30% who does not indulge, based on what you know about them. We aren't talking about expecting to win the lottery here...something with outrageously long odds whose outcome is completely random. We are talking about a belief that you have some control over what happens in your relationship, and thus believing that your efforts to be the best spouse you can be gives your spouse every reason to remains in the 30% sub set.
Are SOME people in denial? No question. Some people are in denial about how good a spouse they are, some people are in denial about the true character of the person they are married to (like the woman who marries the man who met her cheating on his previous wife). But this is not universal.
I'm guessing you didn't play competitive sports, did you? I could be wrong...but this belief that unless you are on the statistical majority side of the equation you should not believe in yourself is not something sustainable in competitive sports. A good major league hitter FAILS 70% of the time. yet every time he goes up to bat he believes he is going to get a hit. Is this irrational? Absolutely not...because he does in fact have a fair amount of control of whether he is going to get a hit or not. When he is able to bring together his talent, skills, knowledge, focus and determination in the moment...a hit results. Now...the statistical truth is that for him this only happens 30% of the time...it is very difficult. But he believes it can be done, because he has done it.
Agreed...at least for some people. But that doesn't mean they dont' want to know.
And I say for SOME people, because not everyone really invests as much stock in what people think as you do.
One of my best friends told me that his wife was a closet dominatrix who had he discovered was been having affairs for some time. He told me this even though he in no way shape or form was compelled to share this information with me. It did not embarrass him...he felt it reflected on her. And you know what else? The thing that made him the MOST mad about the situation was that others he considered friends knew (coincidentally...a good friend of his is now the husband of a woman I had dated for awhile and dumped...apparently he, his wife / my ex GF, my friends ex wife, and her "slave" went on a cruise together). He was LIVID that someone who he thought was his friend (the guy) had not told him about his wife.
So...you see...I know my friends. That is how we have a friendship...because we know each other and love each other as brothers.
Now, like I said, if the person in question in this scenario was not someone I would count as a close friend, I would mind my own business. Not so much for the reasons you cite, as I think you are off base, but because my personal policy is to mind my own business.
However, if they WERE a close friend, I would tell them, because that is what they would want, and YES, I know that.
Bud Plug said:
Well...ok...you didn't sound very much like it was an opinion...you were sounding like "this is what is the case and you are are just too neanderthal in your ways to understand the truth" but of course you are entitled to your point of view and encouraged to express it.
Bud Plug said:
I am curious to know how it is you are able to discern what people "really feel" if this is some far removed from what they say.
Bud Plug said:
I have more than one friend, though I will admit that I toss that word around a lot less casually than most people. I know there views on this topic as well as they have shared them with me during the course of some very heart to heart conversations that have been a result of the fact the 2 of the 3 have had infidelity be a part of their marriages.
Now...how you think that makes for a less valid case than your observations and judgments about how people might be better off I am not clear on, but i think there is a reason why most of the people who have posted (which is not a scientific sample by any means, but...) are of a differing opinion.
They believe their friends would want to know because they either a) Know their friends (my position) or b) feel that THEY would want to know. Now...there is no question that b) represents a projection...but that projection is no less valid than you deciding what people really think and feel or what is actually best for them based on observation,.
Bud Plug said:
You probably think love represents massive denial about the difference between true emotion and the need to procreate and the practice benefits of partnerships in perpetuating the species, don't you?
It is PERFECTLY RATIONAL to understand how commonplace extramarital sex is while still BELIEVING that YOUR spouse is one of those 30% who does not indulge, based on what you know about them. We aren't talking about expecting to win the lottery here...something with outrageously long odds whose outcome is completely random. We are talking about a belief that you have some control over what happens in your relationship, and thus believing that your efforts to be the best spouse you can be gives your spouse every reason to remains in the 30% sub set.
Are SOME people in denial? No question. Some people are in denial about how good a spouse they are, some people are in denial about the true character of the person they are married to (like the woman who marries the man who met her cheating on his previous wife). But this is not universal.
I'm guessing you didn't play competitive sports, did you? I could be wrong...but this belief that unless you are on the statistical majority side of the equation you should not believe in yourself is not something sustainable in competitive sports. A good major league hitter FAILS 70% of the time. yet every time he goes up to bat he believes he is going to get a hit. Is this irrational? Absolutely not...because he does in fact have a fair amount of control of whether he is going to get a hit or not. When he is able to bring together his talent, skills, knowledge, focus and determination in the moment...a hit results. Now...the statistical truth is that for him this only happens 30% of the time...it is very difficult. But he believes it can be done, because he has done it.
Bud Plug said:
Agreed...at least for some people. But that doesn't mean they dont' want to know.
And I say for SOME people, because not everyone really invests as much stock in what people think as you do.
One of my best friends told me that his wife was a closet dominatrix who had he discovered was been having affairs for some time. He told me this even though he in no way shape or form was compelled to share this information with me. It did not embarrass him...he felt it reflected on her. And you know what else? The thing that made him the MOST mad about the situation was that others he considered friends knew (coincidentally...a good friend of his is now the husband of a woman I had dated for awhile and dumped...apparently he, his wife / my ex GF, my friends ex wife, and her "slave" went on a cruise together). He was LIVID that someone who he thought was his friend (the guy) had not told him about his wife.
So...you see...I know my friends. That is how we have a friendship...because we know each other and love each other as brothers.
Now, like I said, if the person in question in this scenario was not someone I would count as a close friend, I would mind my own business. Not so much for the reasons you cite, as I think you are off base, but because my personal policy is to mind my own business.
However, if they WERE a close friend, I would tell them, because that is what they would want, and YES, I know that.
Let It Be!
This couple is doomed anywy, it's only a matter of time.
I've done both in my life, told a friend when I saw his wife with another man and they both hated me after since they patched things up, and kept my mouth shut in another situation, and still friends with both of them since no one knows the better.
This couple is doomed anywy, it's only a matter of time.
I've done both in my life, told a friend when I saw his wife with another man and they both hated me after since they patched things up, and kept my mouth shut in another situation, and still friends with both of them since no one knows the better.
I certainly see your point! However, having been through the pain of divorce (although not from this cause) and although no matter what happens this is going to be very messy, at the same time, the hurt now is going to be less than the hurt then - plus the costs.james t kirk said:
I would certainly only say what you know. You saw someone in Calgary who was the spitting image of his fiancée with someone who was "all over her" but you didn't speak with them and so can't be positive etc. . .
I will also say that I'm glad I'm not in the O.P.'s position. I'll also add that if he is a member of a 'faith community' talking with a cleric might help clarify the situation.
Bros before Hos is something most of us live by. Not in the literal gender specific derogatory terms, but in how close we are to the "Bro". For myself, "Bro" can be used for anyone male or female I love like a close family member. So if any of us saw our brother's GF, or our sister' BF with someone else, most of us would speak up. So to the OP, if you feel this close to your Friend and, he feels just as close to you, tell him.
Jade4u
It's been good to know ya
Mia.Colpa said:
If they hated you afterwards the friendship was not that good anyhow. I poor pitty the other couple if they have kids and find out later and suffer an even more tragic divorce. Not everyone will befriend someone that comes to them with such information. If things are handled maturely between both individuals things should work out. If not then I would say that the friend is immature or simply not a good friend to begin with. Not bringing something like this to someones attention imho is like stabbing them in the back and sitting back watching them suffer. When they find out the truth they will suffer more from the expanded legnth of time with deeper feelings, kids, homes that need to be divided etc... etc... Don't let one persons reaction detter you from doing the right thing by someone else. As they say not everyone is the same. You can rest better knowing you did the right thing or at least tried to save any future kids etc...
As with my brothers situation even I appreciate what he tried to do for my brother. My brother did not believe it because he had too much love for his wife. As they say love is blind. Maybe he did not doubt his friend but needed to find out for himself. In the end the choice was his. But, at least his friend imho was a true friend who tried to save him and did not want to sit back and watch a phoney display of affection on her behalf.
If my friend was in a similar situation I think I would puke if I knew someone was doing such things and I had knowledge.
MLAM said:
That's an easy one to answer. Actions speak louder than words.
MLAM said:
As to the balance of stated opinion in the thread, I suppose there could be a variety of factors, including the reasonable assumption that people who would not get involved in this type of problem are probably also less statistically inclined to be interested in reading the thread or posting about the subject matter (obviously with some exceptions, myself being one).
As to our relative life experiences and observations, that's impossible to compare. Obviously, I trust my take on what I have observed.
MLAM said:
Huh? Where did this come from? Were we even talking about love? Or was this some kind of ad hominem argument? Doesn't matter.
MLAM said:
Should I guess that you did?!
(Although you couldn't be more wrong about my sports background, past or current. I'd be curious as to what made you leap to this particular conclusion. It might provide some insight as to the judgments you've made about some of the other people (friends, etc) mentioned in your posts).Let me put it in hockey terms (which I'm more familiar with). When a defenseman on the point gets a chance to take a shot on goal: i) he believes he can hit the net, ii) he believes the defense might not be able to block it, and he believes the goalie might not stop it. With this set of beliefs, he takes the shot. When his shot is blocked or saved is he in a state of shocked disbelief? Of course not! He knows most shots from the point don't result in a goal! Based on the experience of playing the game, it would be irrational to think that every shot will score.
The point is that believing you might succeed is not the same as expecting to succeed. Most people will proceed with a plan they are attracted to (including getting married) as long as they think it might succeed.
While I certainly never played professional baseball, I suspect the same is true for a hitter at the plate.
MLAM said:
Certainly true about some people, but entire economies are based (soundly) on the opposite assumption!
MLAM said:
Setting aside your argument that your close friends would want to know, in your judgement would they be better off knowing, and if so, why?
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