2009 MLB Hall of Fame ... who gets in????
- Thread starter blueline
- Start date
This....
If you admit Rice, then a BUNCH of people now have a legitimate beef, because they have offensive numbers that are comparable, but a better all around game.
I truly...honestly..without malice...believe Rice should not be in. That he was the quintessential "close, but no cigar" player....
...is what I am saying.Captain Fantastic said:
If you admit Rice, then a BUNCH of people now have a legitimate beef, because they have offensive numbers that are comparable, but a better all around game.
I truly...honestly..without malice...believe Rice should not be in. That he was the quintessential "close, but no cigar" player....
Carter had a good arm. For a left fielder. He played right in Toronto, and was a joke. Rice had a good arm for a left fielder. I have a good arm for a left fielder. My mom has a good arm for a left fielder.Captain Fantastic said:
Rice was not a great outfielder, but he was better than a lotta guys that are in, or will be. He could throw the ball home. Before the runner. Even if the runner was a burner like Sid Bream. He didn't use PED's. The Fenway thing is BS. The monster giveth and taketh. He probably lost far more HR's than the wall gave him, as has every linedrive hitter to play in Fenway.
Park factor is a sabrmetric stat, didn't exist when Rice played, and is vastly overrated.
Murph was a great player for about 5 years. He couldn't carry Rice's bag.
Jose Canseco needs help. Have you read Juiced?Toke said:
Fred McGriff?
Wait, You're a Jays fan, right?
This discussion really highlights for me why the selection process is kinda messed up.
Sportswriters get to choose who gets in, most of whom have never played the game at a high level and rely on stats far too much
Sure they talk to players all the time & learn about all the little things certain player do to excel at the game. (extra batting, fielding practice, extreme competitive nature & the mental edge needed to win)
However unless you play the game at a high level there is certain element of understanding the writers lack
There is also some negative bias depending on how writer friendly player was
It might be more appropriate to have current & former players have a say in the selection
Sure there will be some teammate bias and bias against players who are not well liked thought the league
On the upside when I hear Goose Gossage say Jim Rice was one of the few guys he really had concern facing & his induction was long overdue, I take notice.
Similarly in Basketball, Larry Bird said DJ Johnson was the best basketball player he ever played with.
But DJ will not get in their hall of fame
Sportswriters get to choose who gets in, most of whom have never played the game at a high level and rely on stats far too much
Sure they talk to players all the time & learn about all the little things certain player do to excel at the game. (extra batting, fielding practice, extreme competitive nature & the mental edge needed to win)
However unless you play the game at a high level there is certain element of understanding the writers lack
There is also some negative bias depending on how writer friendly player was
It might be more appropriate to have current & former players have a say in the selection
Sure there will be some teammate bias and bias against players who are not well liked thought the league
On the upside when I hear Goose Gossage say Jim Rice was one of the few guys he really had concern facing & his induction was long overdue, I take notice.
Similarly in Basketball, Larry Bird said DJ Johnson was the best basketball player he ever played with.
But DJ will not get in their hall of fame
Fred McGriff....
...hit 493 home runs, and SHOULD be in the HOF when his time comes.
Truth is, the typical McGriff season and the typical Rice reason look very similar...
McGriff
AB 577 Runs 89 Hits 164 HR 32 RBI 102 BB 86 SO 124 BA .284 OBP.377 SLUG .509
Rice
AB 638 Runs 97 Hits 190 HR 30 RBI 113 BB 52 SO 110 BA .298 OBP .352 SLUG .502
...the biggest differences being that Rice benefited from playing in a better lineup to score more runs and get more RBIs, while McGriff clearly favored walks over hits (note the the differences between the two averages is almost exactly the same).
So...McGriff was essentially the same offensive threat over his career that Rice was...except McGriff was a threat for a lot longer, played in a tougher league to hit in much of his career, and of course, actually won a World Series ring.
Add to that no one ever questions McGriff's relationship with his teammates, the fans or the media (the guy was so well liked that not one but two different teams signed him essentially just to give him a shot at 500 HRs).
So you think Rice should be in, but scoff at McGriff???
IMHO...if MCGriff doesn't get in first ballot (75 to 80%....but he SHOULD get in first ballot), he will (barely) edge Dawson as the most deserving guy not in the HOF...
bigdik said:Jose Canseco needs help. Have you read Juiced?
Fred McGriff?
Wait, You're a Jays fan, right?
...hit 493 home runs, and SHOULD be in the HOF when his time comes.
Truth is, the typical McGriff season and the typical Rice reason look very similar...
McGriff
AB 577 Runs 89 Hits 164 HR 32 RBI 102 BB 86 SO 124 BA .284 OBP.377 SLUG .509
Rice
AB 638 Runs 97 Hits 190 HR 30 RBI 113 BB 52 SO 110 BA .298 OBP .352 SLUG .502
...the biggest differences being that Rice benefited from playing in a better lineup to score more runs and get more RBIs, while McGriff clearly favored walks over hits (note the the differences between the two averages is almost exactly the same).
So...McGriff was essentially the same offensive threat over his career that Rice was...except McGriff was a threat for a lot longer, played in a tougher league to hit in much of his career, and of course, actually won a World Series ring.
Add to that no one ever questions McGriff's relationship with his teammates, the fans or the media (the guy was so well liked that not one but two different teams signed him essentially just to give him a shot at 500 HRs).
So you think Rice should be in, but scoff at McGriff???
IMHO...if MCGriff doesn't get in first ballot (75 to 80%....but he SHOULD get in first ballot), he will (barely) edge Dawson as the most deserving guy not in the HOF...
Jose has moved on to bigger and better things. Like his big fight tonight against ............ Danny Partridgebigdik said:
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/phillygossip/CansecoBonaduce_to_fight_here_in_January.html
Jim Rice deserves to be...
... in the Hall of Very Good. But not Cooperstown and the Hall of Fame. That should be reserved for the best of the best.
Jim Rice is one of, if not THE worst defensive outfielders in the HoF. He was never any good - a DH who played LF due to the fact they had nowhere else to hide him. Plus he was a clod on the basepaths. Joe Carter had better range and a better arm - most neutral observers would agree.
I'd say that your Red Sox Nation blinders probably don't allow you to see it!
Talk about inflated numbers - Fenway allows more hits and doubles that would be outs in any other park, meaning inflated batting averages and slugging. The only thing the Monster taketh is outs from the defensive team.
Park Factor is not just a SABRmetric stat - it's a reality. Whether it was used at the time is irrelavent. Some ballparks are hitters' parks, others are pitchers' - Park Factor quantifies it. The numbers don't lie - Fenway produces on average 108% more runs than the average park. That's not an accident or anomaly when it happens for decades.
Seriously, you're actually hurting your argument by being so biased.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/murphda05.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/riceji01.shtml
Since you claim Murph only had 5 great seasons, I must ask, how many "great" seasons did Rice have ... as a virtual DH?
... in the Hall of Very Good. But not Cooperstown and the Hall of Fame. That should be reserved for the best of the best.
Blinded by your Red Sox allegiance much?bigdik said:
Jim Rice is one of, if not THE worst defensive outfielders in the HoF. He was never any good - a DH who played LF due to the fact they had nowhere else to hide him. Plus he was a clod on the basepaths. Joe Carter had better range and a better arm - most neutral observers would agree.
I'd say that your Red Sox Nation blinders probably don't allow you to see it!
Depends on your definition of PEDs - I'll bet he popped greenies like the majority of guys in his (and previous) era(s).bigdik said:
You've GOT to be kidding, right? Since you brought her into the discussion, I posit that your mother could hit the Monster on the fly!bigdik said:
Talk about inflated numbers - Fenway allows more hits and doubles that would be outs in any other park, meaning inflated batting averages and slugging. The only thing the Monster taketh is outs from the defensive team.
Park Factor is not just a SABRmetric stat - it's a reality. Whether it was used at the time is irrelavent. Some ballparks are hitters' parks, others are pitchers' - Park Factor quantifies it. The numbers don't lie - Fenway produces on average 108% more runs than the average park. That's not an accident or anomaly when it happens for decades.
Seriously, you're actually hurting your argument by being so biased.
Nor should he - he was a better all-around player. He actually brought something to the table outside of the batters' box - defense, arm, speed...bigdik said:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/murphda05.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/riceji01.shtml
Since you claim Murph only had 5 great seasons, I must ask, how many "great" seasons did Rice have ... as a virtual DH?
I'd agree...
This illustrates my point though - Rice was the quintessential "gateway" player. If you induct Rice, there are at least two dozen players who now have a right to say "hey, WTF??!!!"
Albert Belle comes to mind, for example. Al Oliver does too. Dave Parker anyone? Andres Galarraga? Belle produced Rice numbers in 4 fewer seasons...and had his career end early Kirby Puckett style (indeed, had Belle not been SUCH an asshole, he'd probably be in the Hall now via a Puckett like dispensation). Each of those other gentlemen produced numbers comparable to Rice, but were better fielders, base runners and teammates (save for Belle). Parker and Oliver also have World Series rings.
..that Dale Murphy was a better all around player than Rice, but since I wasn't ready to make a HOF case for Murphy, I let it slide.Captain Fantastic said:
This illustrates my point though - Rice was the quintessential "gateway" player. If you induct Rice, there are at least two dozen players who now have a right to say "hey, WTF??!!!"
Albert Belle comes to mind, for example. Al Oliver does too. Dave Parker anyone? Andres Galarraga? Belle produced Rice numbers in 4 fewer seasons...and had his career end early Kirby Puckett style (indeed, had Belle not been SUCH an asshole, he'd probably be in the Hall now via a Puckett like dispensation). Each of those other gentlemen produced numbers comparable to Rice, but were better fielders, base runners and teammates (save for Belle). Parker and Oliver also have World Series rings.
This can be debated so very often in nearly every HOF.Captain Fantastic said:
Blinded by your obvious hatred of Jim Rice?Captain Fantastic said:
Come on C-F, we get it that you dislike the guy and that is okay. I know B-D and I have some obvious bias because we are Red Sox fans but we did admit Rice is borderline with good arguments pro and con. How many other HOFer can we say that about? Lots.
Now that is totally ridiculous. Worst becasue you say so or because you just have a major hate on for Jim Ed? Or worst because facts and stats say that he is and there is no dispute? The guy was a very capable LFer and you make it sound like he is Dave freaking Kingman.Captain Fantastic said:
As for Joe Carter and the HOF, well I think his whopping 19 votes in 2004 speaks volumes as to how people who are not Blue Jays fans think of him.
Jim Rice played a position that is not exactly known for having outstanding defensive players. Here are all the left fielders in the HOF. (disregard the rating next to the name for the purpose of this discussion. It was copied from an article I was looking at)
Al Simmons - A
Fred Clarke - A-
Joe Kelley - A-
Stan Musial - B
Jesse Burkett - B
Joe Medwick - B-
Ed Delahanty - B-
Zack Wheat - B-
Carl Yastrzemski - C+
Goose Goslin - C+
Jim O’Rourke - C+
Ted Williams - C
Billy Williams - C
Chick Hafey - C
Heinie Manush - C
Willie Stargell - C-
Ralph Kiner - C-
Lou Brock - C-
Now - do you know how many LFers won Gold Gloves from 1957-2001, when the award was first given to the Best Three Outfielders (not one for each position)?? 135 Gold Gloves were awarded in total. 19 to Left Fielders and 15 of them were won by (Yaz, Minoso, Winfield and Rudi). Who typically wins the GGs? Center Fielders plus the occasional strong armed Rfer. What does all this mean? Well it means that Rice shouldn't be overlooked just because he played a postion that seldom has a defensive star. The LF position is typically played by those in the OF with the weakest arm. So should we just simply keep all left fielders out of the HOF because they aren't as strong defensively as fielders in CF and RF?
Would Rice have won a GG in one existed for a Left Fielder exclusively? Perhaps. I have read stats in articles that suggest he would have.
Rice also gets a bad rap because he played on a team that had several GG winners around him. Fisk, Burleson, Yaz, Dewey, Lynn, Cecil. Calling Rice the worst defender on the Red Sox is like calling the guy who finishes last in the Olympic 100m slow. It is not a fair comparison.
Consider these numbers when I compare Rice-Brock-Stargell. I just picked those three randomly, no other reason.
Rice
GP in LF = 1503
PO = 3027
AS = 132
E = 62
PCT = .981
Brock
GP in LF = 2163
PO = 3710
AS = 106
E = 167
PCT = .958
Stargell
GP in LF = 1229
PO = 1867
AS = 96
E = 80
PCT = .961
Similar to how your dislike for Rice allows you to compare him to the Dave Kingmans of MLB. How would you rate Manny as an outfielder? Rice was no defensive specialist but I'd rate him head and shoulders above Manny.Captain Fantastic said:
Again C-F, I am not saying Rice was the greatest LFer of all-time and I doubt B-D is either. We both get that there are good arguments on both sides, but as I said earlier, you are going to get that very often when an award or an honour is the result of a vote. His offensive numbers stack up with several current HOFers so if they are in, he deserves to be in as well.
As for another poster, I forget who it was, that made reference to Rice's character, well - the list of pure bastards in the HOF would take quite a while to recite. Rice may have been surly and miserable in the locker room, but it shouldn't have anything to do with what he did on the field. It's not the Hall of Nice Guys.
Just know that I am very much on the side of those wanting Dawson to get in. He is long over due.
Did someone mentioned Willie Stargell? He played in old Fordes Field where the centre field fence was like 444 feet from home plate. That can really eat at someone's HR production. Willie died far too young, as did Curt Flood.
This is the thing...
And lets concede for a second that he was an average left fielder with the glove.
Did Jim Rice do ANYTHING else in baseball at a HOF level? At an all star level?
Are there anyone other outfielders in the hall...ANYONE...whose offensive stats are comparable to Rice about whom it could be said that they possessed no other all star level skills? That performed any aspect of the game at a level below Rice?
So...when you say...
"His offensive numbers stack up with several current HOFers so if they are in, he deserves to be in as well. "
...who are you speaking about, and were they less proficient than Rice at any other aspects of the game than hitting?
...let's for a second concede that Rice's offensive stats are Left Fielder HOF worthy (and I think you will concede if that is the case, it is barely so).blueline said:
And lets concede for a second that he was an average left fielder with the glove.
Did Jim Rice do ANYTHING else in baseball at a HOF level? At an all star level?
Are there anyone other outfielders in the hall...ANYONE...whose offensive stats are comparable to Rice about whom it could be said that they possessed no other all star level skills? That performed any aspect of the game at a level below Rice?
So...when you say...
"His offensive numbers stack up with several current HOFers so if they are in, he deserves to be in as well. "
...who are you speaking about, and were they less proficient than Rice at any other aspects of the game than hitting?
Stargell on defense. Wasn't left field in old Forbes Field also a "cow pasture" and, therefore harder to defend? For example, one can chase a fly ball for miles and miles only to have it tick off one's glove and be charged with an error. Also, much harder to try and throw a runner out when you are 800 feet from home plate.blueline said:
Yes, I agreeMLAM said:
Yes - I am going to say average at best with a low range factor and not a particulary strong throwing arm - but definitely a comparable defender to the slugging types of the Greg Luzinskis, Ron Kittles, Jeff Burroughs, Richie Zisks of that era and certainly miles ahead of Dave Kingman .........lolMLAM said:
Yes. I use these numbers. When Rice retired in 1989, he was one of only 13 players with eight or more seasons of 20 homers and 100 RBIs. The others were Ruth, Foxx, Gehrig, Aaron, Mays, DiMaggio, Killebrew, Musial, Ott, Schmidt, (Ted) Williams, and BanksMLAM said:
Then being an 8-time all-star. One MVP award and top 5 in five other seasons
The specific comparison I made way up in an earlier post was to Tony Perez.MLAM said:
Rice
16 seasons
Avg. .298
162 Game Avg 30 HR/season and 113 RBI
1 MVP and top 5 in five other seasons
8 time all-star
0 WS championships
Perez
22 seasons
Avg. .279
162 Game Avg 22 HR/season and 96 RBI
0 MVP awards and top 5 in voting only once
7 time all-star
2 WS championships
I still believe if Rice plays close to 22 seasons like Yaz did and had he won at least one championship, like Perez, he goes in sooner than he did.
I don't know about it being a cow pasture. The 800 feet to home plate is an exaggeration, you know that. It was 360 from home to left field and outfielders use a cutoff man often when throwing to the plate.Rockslinger said:
Again - my use of Brock and Stargell wasn't to say Rice was a superior defender, it was more to show C-F that Rice was capable of catching a batted ball and making a play with it to make outs. He just made it sound like Rice was totally useless.
First....
But Perez isn't an outfielder. And he has multiple WS rings. And a Gold Glove.
My questions were
1) What if anything did Jim Rice do at an HOF or all star level besides hit? (and yes, I did not say "besides hit" that first time...I thought I had set up that implication with my opening statements)
2) When you compare Rice to other HOF who you feel he is as or more qualified than, who are these guys and what do they do at a level below Rice (and I admit, I didn't make explicit that I was speaking of other outfielders)
...let me say that I agree that Rice wins the comparison to Perez.blueline said:
But Perez isn't an outfielder. And he has multiple WS rings. And a Gold Glove.
My questions were
1) What if anything did Jim Rice do at an HOF or all star level besides hit? (and yes, I did not say "besides hit" that first time...I thought I had set up that implication with my opening statements)
2) When you compare Rice to other HOF who you feel he is as or more qualified than, who are these guys and what do they do at a level below Rice (and I admit, I didn't make explicit that I was speaking of other outfielders)
But we're talking about baseball here. And it generally has the highest standards.blueline said:
Actually, you have me all wrong - I actually like Jim Rice. Think he was a very good hitter. Both respected and felt sorry for him being the first African-American baseball star in a still-racist Boston - and even more racist New England media, which vilified him and helped make him the surly guy he became.blueline said:
I just happen to think he was a one-dimensional player and that his one dimension was not good enough to earn him a place in Cooperstown. As far as I'm concerned, he falls a little shy of that.
If, for example, you ignore Barry Bonds' PED usage and his early-career excellence in the outfield (range-wise, not his noodle arm), he has the kind of offensive numbers that constitute a great one-dimensional player. Manny is the same. Prolific hitters with great batting eyes and prodigious power. Jim Rice comes up short in my book.
Honestly, my not supporting Jim Rice's HoF credentials really has nothing to do with a dislike of the man. I never believed the bullshit that came out of Boston and New York about his personality, etc. I just thought he was a limited ballplayer.
Worst because I watched him play and because of what I read about him in an historical context and because he has a poor range factor and a weak-ish, inaccurate arm.blueline said:
He was, at his very best, an average leftfielder. And that's not a compliment.
Again, read what I posted. Joe Carter does not belong in the Hall of Fame. And neither does Jim Rice.blueline said:
Whether his position is traditionally one that has good defensive players isn't the point. The point, in case you still haven't caught on, is that he was a poor defender and that his batting alone should not quite be enough to get him into the HoF. The numbers just don't add up. Add to that a lack of basestealing and no postseason pedigree to speak of, and his case is a very weak one.blueline said:
Gold Gloves, unless one's name is Ozzie Smith and the like, are meaningless (see: Palmeiro, Rafael - 1B GG in 1999.) I'm talking about his real defensive ability. There was only three years where Rice had over 300 put outs - the bare minimum for an above-average fielder.
Proof please. I have NEVER read anything that suggested Jim Rice was anything more than an average fielder at best and a defensive liability at his worst.blueline said:
What do his teammates' defensive abilities have to do with Jim Rice's shortcomings in the field? (And btw, Yaz was far from a Gold Glover by the time Jim Ed came around.)
Thank you for bringing up Lou Brock. Overrated player who also doesn't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame - minimal power, didn't get on base enough or score enough runs as a leadoff hitter, surprisingly poor fielder for a "fast" player. Tim Raines is twice the ballplayer that Brock was and he can't get a sniff (double entendre intended) at Cooperstown.
Please tell me where I compared Jim Rice to Dave Kingman? Exaggeration is not helping your cause... lol!blueline said:
See above for Manny. He can be a decent outfielder when he concentrates. Unfortunately, he is a dolt much of the time. But man, can he ever rake. He's always knocked the cover off the ball and been a playoff performer as well. Best right-handed hitter in the last 40 years.
Who does he stack up against? Fellow Hall-of-Very-Good players? Just because the Tony Perez's, Kirby Pucketts and Lou Brocks are in doesn't mean Jim Rice should be.blueline said:
Like I said, I personally believe Rice's "character" issues were the result of the nasty New England media and racist Red Sox fans of the times.blueline said:
There's hope for you yet.blueline said:
Although I think the Hawk's also a borderline HoFer too - just a bit better than Rice. He just happened to be a 5-tool player, something Jim Rice never was.
PS - I've said this before and I'll say it again: Tony Perez doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame either. And he's another guy that got in very late - his 14th year on the ballot, I believe.
He had the Big Red Machine alumni (including many HoF-ers) pushing for him to get in. Just like the Boston media (at the behest of the team and the Red Sox Nation) has been doing for Rice in recent years.
Another reason to reduce the maximum number of years on the ballot down - to keep the HoF from being a popularity contest, PR campaign or allowing politics to decide who's Cooperstown-worthy.
He had the Big Red Machine alumni (including many HoF-ers) pushing for him to get in. Just like the Boston media (at the behest of the team and the Red Sox Nation) has been doing for Rice in recent years.
Another reason to reduce the maximum number of years on the ballot down - to keep the HoF from being a popularity contest, PR campaign or allowing politics to decide who's Cooperstown-worthy.
