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14 students, 1 teacher dead after shooting at Texas elementary school: Gov. Abbott

poorboy

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2001
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Yeah, I pretty much agree. Any DA who did that poorly would be disciplined.
And I call bullshit on you being an ex CAF member and being down at the courts all the time.

There is no District Attorney in Canada.

The Canadian Court System has Crown Counsel.

City Counselors have no say in the Canadian Court Process. There is only Provincial and Federal Crown.

Someone here is bullshitting about knowing firearms, the court system and getting their knowledge from television and media that needs to generate revenue instead of first hand knowledge, that's for sure.
 
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mandrill

monkey
Aug 23, 2001
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And I call bullshit on you being an ex CAF member and being down at the courts all the time.
There is no District Attorney in Canada.
The Canadian Court System has Crown Counsel.
City Counselors have no say in the Canadian Court Process.
Someone here is bullshitting about knowing the court system, that's for sure.
That's because I assumed that you lived in the US because you keep talking about gun culture. Hence my reference to US institutions, not Canadian ones.

It's hard to imagine that any Crown Attorney would not be disciplined over a 50% stay rate, the moreso because the Canadian system has no political input and is simply by appointment.
 

Leimonis

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2020
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You can call bullshit all you want.

Take look at Surrey, British Columbia
okay here's what I found. Super low percentage of not guilty findings (one percent!) and out of 43% stays about half still resulted in consequences. So yes, it's peculiar that BC Crowns stay so many charges, but no, it's not a free for all criminal paradise as you suggested, is it?


Of the accused persons on prosecution files that concluded in 2020/21, 48 percent had a guilty finding, one percent were found not guilty, six percent entered into a recognizance to keep the peace (i.e. a peace bond), 43 percent had charges stayed (by the court or by Crown Counsel), and two percent concluded in some other fashion, such as a court finding of unfit to stand trial, or not criminally responsible due to mental disorder. Of the accused persons whose charges were stayed by Crown Counsel, approximately half resulted in some other consequence to the accused, including a peace bond, a referral to alternative measures, or a guilty plea and sentence on another file.
In 2020/21, a total of 8 prosecutions concluded with a Judicial Stay of Proceedings, for a variety of legal reasons, the most common being unreasonable delay.
 

poorboy

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2001
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okay here's what I found. Super low percentage of not guilty findings (one percent!) and out of 43% stays about half still resulted in consequences. So yes, it's peculiar that BC Crowns stay so many charges, but no, it's not a free for all criminal paradise as you suggested, is it?


Of the accused persons on prosecution files that concluded in 2020/21, 48 percent had a guilty finding, one percent were found not guilty, six percent entered into a recognizance to keep the peace (i.e. a peace bond), 43 percent had charges stayed (by the court or by Crown Counsel), and two percent concluded in some other fashion, such as a court finding of unfit to stand trial, or not criminally responsible due to mental disorder. Of the accused persons whose charges were stayed by Crown Counsel, approximately half resulted in some other consequence to the accused, including a peace bond, a referral to alternative measures, or a guilty plea and sentence on another file.
In 2020/21, a total of 8 prosecutions concluded with a Judicial Stay of Proceedings, for a variety of legal reasons, the most common being unreasonable delay.
It's only by the grace of God it's not a criminal paradise. Even when convicted, jail time is minimal.

The reason for such a low percentage of not guilty findings is because Crown Counsel basically throws out anything that they think might be a challenge to win. They don't want to set bad case law and court space is limited. They'd rather cut deals in the hallway so they can move on to the next plea deal.

Since a Peace Bond is just a piece of paper saying don't be bad, and a lot of the time there's no consequences to not completing alternative measures, there's really no consequences.
 
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poorboy

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Aug 18, 2001
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That's because I assumed that you lived in the US because you keep talking about gun culture. Hence my reference to US institutions, not Canadian ones.

It's hard to imagine that any Crown Attorney would not be disciplined over a 50% stay rate, the moreso because the Canadian system has no political input and is simply by appointment.
Not once did I say I am American, and I've provided plenty of Canadian references.

Don't rely so much on the popular media or else you'll go for a ride on the bandwagon without knowing the facts. Learn both sides if you want to be a critic. Hands on knowledge is best.

Neither left or right extreme is good.
 
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mandrill

monkey
Aug 23, 2001
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It's only by the grace of God it's not a criminal paradise. Even when convicted, jail time is minimal.
The reason for such a low percentage of not guilty findings is because Crown Counsel basically throws out anything that they think might be a challenge to win. They don't want to set bad case law and court space is limited. They'd rather cut deals in the hallway so they can move on to the next plea deal.
Since a Peace Bond is just a piece of paper saying don't be bad, and a lot of the time there's no consequences to not completing alternative measures, there's really no consequences.
Poorboy, when you say "stayed" are you talking about deals on guilty pleas and peace bonds? Those charges are "withdrawn by the Crown". The term "stayed" means that the court blocks the prosecution without there being a finding of guilty or not guilty. It's usually done for prosecutorial misconduct, including not meeting timetables and limitations.

Even cutting you some slack on not understanding terminology, Crown counsel are more than happy to fight tough cases. Although it's also a practical matter that they have to be time effective.

And yeah, I wouldn't advise you breach a peace bond, as it leads to fresh criminal charges.

You seem to be dead set on thinking that the court system is a shambles. You're probably the same guy who'd object to hiring twice as many Crown attorneys to get the job done.
 

poorboy

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2001
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Poorboy, when you say "stayed" are you talking about deals on guilty pleas and peace bonds? Those charges are "withdrawn by the Crown". The term "stayed" means that the court blocks the prosecution without there being a finding of guilty or not guilty. It's usually done for prosecutorial misconduct, including not meeting timetables and limitations.

Even cutting you some slack on not understanding terminology, Crown counsel are more than happy to fight tough cases. Although it's also a practical matter that they have to be time effective.

And yeah, I wouldn't advise you breach a peace bond, as it leads to fresh criminal charges.

You seem to be dead set on thinking that the court system is a shambles. You're probably the same guy who'd object to hiring twice as many Crown attorneys to get the job done.
Charges are stayed out here for a variety of reasons other than misconduct and limitations. See page 16. of the report LEIMONIS linked. Only 8% are for delay. "X was breaching, but it was only one condition and it was a very minor one", etc. "He was in the process of turning his life around and had a drywalling job lined up." Stay!

Again, I seriously doubt that you are down at the courts all the time if you don't know this.

Instead of making assumptions about what I think, look for facts. Crown is overworked just like most people associated with the justice system. If they had more resources, they'd likely go to court more instead of always looking for pleas so they can move on to the next case.
 
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basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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Gee soI guess that making it harder for people with mental health issue to get guns and red flag laws would have no effect.
If they passed a law against demons, maybe the witch trials could get guns out of shooters hands.
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
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...

The reason for using semi automatic is because hogs are herd animals, so having the ability to follow up quickly means you have the ability to take down a large number of them. Very beneficial when you are trying to eradicate them.
...
How many AR owners are employed to eradicate hogs?
 

toguy5252

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Jun 22, 2009
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It's only by the grace of God it's not a criminal paradise. Even when convicted, jail time is minimal.

The reason for such a low percentage of not guilty findings is because Crown Counsel basically throws out anything that they think might be a challenge to win. They don't want to set bad case law and court space is limited. They'd rather cut deals in the hallway so they can move on to the next plea deal.

Since a Peace Bond is just a piece of paper saying don't be bad, and a lot of the time there's no consequences to not completing alternative measures, there's really no consequences.
You obviously know very little about the criminal justice system in Canada.
 
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poorboy

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How many AR owners are employed to eradicate hogs?
No none knows because the problem is nationwide. There's 1.5 million feral hogs in Texas alone. In addition to people paid to hunt hogs, potentially every farmer where hogs are a problem could have one.
 

mandrill

monkey
Aug 23, 2001
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Charges are stayed out here for a variety of reasons other than misconduct and limitations. See page 16. of the report LEIMONIS linked. Only 8% are for delay. "X was breaching, but it was only one condition and it was a very minor one", etc. "He was in the process of turning his life around and had a drywalling job lined up." Stay!
Again, I seriously doubt that you are down at the courts all the time if you don't know this.
Instead of making assumptions about what I think, look for facts. Crown is overworked just like most people associated with the justice system. If they had more resources, they'd likely go to court more instead of always looking for pleas so they can move on to the next case.
This is a massive waste of my time. Arguing with a guy who claims to know more law than me. Plus, same guy who has hijacked a thread about gun control and turned it into his own personal whine about the legal system.
 

mandrill

monkey
Aug 23, 2001
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You obviously know very little about the criminal justice system in Canada.
You and I are both attorneys, but Poorboy just proved that we're lying about that and that he knows way more about the justice system than both of us.
 

poorboy

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Aug 18, 2001
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You obviously know very little about the criminal justice system in Canada.
I know the small part I deal with where I live and know what I see.

I will never make any claim I am an expert. It's too expansive. The Martin's Criminal Code is about 3 inches thick, and that's supposed to be a summary.
 

toguy5252

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Jun 22, 2009
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I do have a solid retort.

I'll answer you since you don't know and unlike basketcase, he refuses to do any research and you don't have a track record of that.

AR15's are extremely popular for hog hunting, in the 5.56/223 caliber as well as other calibers like 300 Blackout which the AR15 can be easily converted to as all you need to do is switch the upper. 5.56 is still sufficient in most cases because you can get up to a 77 grain bullet in that caliber that gives you plenty of knock down power vs the original 55 gr that they used in Vietnam. It is not as common in North America to have a separate upper because guns are cheap here, but in Europe and other parts of the world, it is because only the receiver that contains the firing mechanism that is considered the gun. In addition to being very good eating, hogs are very destructive and the government, both American and Canadian wants them eradicated as they cause an estimated $1.5 billion annually worth of damage.

The reason for using semi automatic is because hogs are herd animals, so having the ability to follow up quickly means you have the ability to take down a large number of them. Very beneficial when you are trying to eradicate them.

Using an AR-15 for Hunting - AT3 Tactical

The AR15 is also very good for hunting prairie dogs, which are prolific and are also very damaging. It is not unheard of to shoot over 1,000 of them on one property on a weekend. Farmers love it when hunters get rid of these because not only are they bad for crops, their holes cause injury to horses and livestock like diary.

What makes the AR15 good for hunting vs other types of semi autos is because the direct impingement action with the buffer results in smoother recoil, so faster follow up shots.

Those are the facts.
So your point is that AR 15's should remain legal because hog and prairie dog hunters use them?
 

poorboy

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2001
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You and I are both attorneys, but Poorboy just proved that we're lying about that and that he knows way more about the justice system than both of us.
You can claim to be whatever you want on here. No one is going to stop you, but I know you've made some slip ups that have raised flags to your credibility.
 

poorboy

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2001
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So your point is that AR 15's should remain legal because hog and prairie dog hunters use them?
Making it illegal won't do much. There's lots of other semi auto's that are manufactured that will step in to fill the gap. The AR15 is only one design. It just happens to be extremely popular because it's "America's" rifle. Designed and built in the U.S. If it's banned, people will just buy or design other semi autos. Already happening in Canada.
 

toguy5252

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Jun 22, 2009
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I know the small part I deal with where I live and know what I see.

I will never make any claim I am an expert. It's too expansive. The Martin's Criminal Code is about 3 inches thick, and that's supposed to be a summary.
My comment was not intended to be a dig or criticism. if you took it that way i apologize. Martins Criminal Code is not a summary. it is the actual legislation that governs criminal law in Canada. It is annotated with cases etc.

In any event the Crown often stays cases when they believe that diversion from the criminal justice system would serve the interests of justice. In fact at least in Ontario the Crown has a very high conviction rate. Most cases result in a plea which is a good system and most accused. Most accused are not murderers etc but people who commit one offence and are never heard from again in the criminal justice system so diversion is a good thing. That is not being soft on crim but rather not believing that jailing everyone is a panacea.
 
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