Mike Carney to replace Trudeau as Canada’s new PM

[boobtoucher]

TBH the parameters of what defines left, right and centre are quite subjective depending on who is making that evaluation.

I mean, if you don't understand what defines left, right, and centre, you could make this argument.

The right is always the party sector associated with the interests of the upper or dominant classes, the left the sector expressive of the lower economic or social classes, and the centre that of the middle classes. Historically this criterion seems acceptable. The conservative right has defended entrenched prerogatives, privileges and powers; the left has attacked them. The right has been more favorable to the aristocratic position, to the hierarchy of birth or of wealth; the left has fought for the equalization of advantage or of opportunity, for the claims of the less advantaged. Defence and attack have met, under democratic conditions, not in the name of class but in the name of principle; but the opposing principles have broadly corresponded to the interests of the different classes.

If you want to take a pseudo intellectual position (aka "Pull a Peterson"), and find a way to say that your believes are not aligned with Nazi beliefs (who sat on the right in the Reichstag), you could say that all definitions are subjective, and nothing really means anything. Therefore, who can really say if the Nazi's were left or right, and who can really say what Left is, or even Right?

 

[boobtoucher]

It's not just payback. It's house cleaning. Several MP's need to go. Just replacing Trudeau isn't enough. And taking a loss is a lesson to the next generation of politicians.

I think we also need a healthy opposition. That can only truly happen if they win every once in a while. I don't see PP as extreme. It's mostly noise. In fact the same noise we all heard about Harper.

But what lesson? Trudeaus' policies have been painted as EXTREME LEFT!!! when they were not. He had opportunity to restructure the economy, launch social programs that would lower the cost of housing, etc. and he chose to take the neo-lib path of enriching the capital class. Even the SNC "scandal" was about preserving shareholder value over the life and livelihood of the Libyan people.

We need a left wing party that takes its work seriously, rather than playing culture and identity politics.

 

[mellowjello]

I mean, if you don't understand what defines left, right, and centre, you could make this argument.

If you want to take a pseudo intellectual position (aka "Pull a Peterson"), and find a way to say that your believes are not aligned with Nazi beliefs (who sat on the right in the Reichstag), you could say that all definitions are subjective, and nothing really means anything. Therefore, who can really say if the Nazi's were left or right, and who can really say what Left is, or even Right?

Left, right, and centre are relative terms, different interpretations in the present and always shifting with time.
I used to call myself left, not anymore because of how it's evolved.
You say so yourself in the last line of this post.

We need a left wing party that takes its work seriously, rather than playing culture and identity politics.

 

[boobtoucher]

Left, right, and centre are relative terms, different interpretations in the present and always shifting with time.
I used to call myself left, not anymore because of how it's evolved.
You say so yourself in the last line of this post.

100% wrong. Left, right and centre do not shift. What the parties represent shifts.

US democrats used to be right wing. Republicans used to be left. Freeing slaves and large-scale government projects is a left wing view (worker's interest vs. capital's interest).

Austrailia's Liberal Party is right wing.

etc.

Political ideologies are aligned along class lines. Since Regan, major parties have all shifted to serve the capital class.

 

[Butler1000]

But what lesson? Trudeaus' policies have been painted as EXTREME LEFT!!! when they were not. He had opportunity to restructure the economy, launch social programs that would lower the cost of housing, etc. and he chose to take the neo-lib path of enriching the capital class. Even the SNC "scandal" was about preserving shareholder value over the life and livelihood of the Libyan people.

We need a left wing party that takes its work seriously, rather than playing culture and identity politics.

The very lesson you say we need. I don't think handing the keys to Carney on the first go around is a good idea.

Do you ready think Carney isn't a card carrying member of the rich Neo-Liberal class? As a Bank Chairman and working for both Broomfield and Goldman-Sachs?

 

[squeezer]

The very lesson you say we need. I don't think handing the keys to Carney on the first go around is a good idea.

Do you ready think Carney isn't a card carrying member of the rich Neo-Liberal class? As a Bank Chairman and working for both Broomfield and Goldman-Sachs?

Who has a better grasp of a steering wheel on a country's finances, Carney or Pee Pee?

 

[Butler1000]

Hypothetically speaking, let's say Carney will make the necessary amendments in policy and is the best person to lead the country at this point,
do you think it would serve the country better to not vote him/Liberals in, based on the reasons you just gave?

I think he needs time in opposition first. I don't trust him to keep his word. His record clearly shows him as a Neo-Liberal elite.

Looking at the Conservatives 57 page platform(and unless you have taken the time to actually read it you really shouldn't be speaking about having an open mind) it's not unreasonable at all. And I consider Pierre a known entity at this point.

Carney has never been a elected official. Never faced public scrutiny on a national level. Never been really accountable. And has spend the last decades only in elite circles. I question if he understands what low income Canadian experiences are and if he is empathetic enough. Or if he would go into austerity policy thinking(as Paul Martin did) that people suffering is worth it.

Also as you said, he hasn't released a real paper on his intentions. It's all very generic. So no, he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt. He is REQUURED to earn my vote and others, not handed to him out of misplaced fear. Or partisanship.

 

[Butler1000]

Who has a better grasp of a steering wheel on a country's finances, Carney or Pee Pee?

Funny how suddenly conservative talking points are the primary mover. What happened to sunny ways, the budget will balance itself?

 

[squeezer]

Funny how suddenly conservative talking points are the primary mover. What happened to sunny ways, the budget will balance itself?

You didn't answer my question, why do you think I would answer yours?

 

[mellowjello]

I think he needs time in opposition first. I don't trust him to keep his word. His record clearly shows him as a Neo-Liberal elite.

Looking at the Conservatives 57 page platform(and unless you have taken the time to actually read it you really shouldn't be speaking about having an open mind) it's not unreasonable at all. And I consider Pierre a known entity at this point.

Carney has never been a elected official. Never faced public scrutiny on a national level. Never been really accountable. And has spend the last decades only in elite circles. I question if he understands what low income Canadian experiences are and if he is empathetic enough. Or if he would go into austerity policy thinking(as Paul Martin did) that people suffering is worth it.

Also as you said, he hasn't released a real paper on his intentions. It's all very generic. So no, he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt. He is REQUURED to earn my vote and others, not handed to him out of misplaced fear. Or partisanship.

I get that part.
I had difficulty with the notion that you would not vote for someone strictly for the reasons you mentioned.

 

[Butler1000]

You didn't answer my question, why do you think I would answer yours?

It does. I think Carney will govern as an elite, conservative, Goldman Sach/Brookfield CEO who will place austerity policy at the forefront. That is his record. I think he will govern to the needs of the wealthy. That is his record.

And I think the Liberal party needs a good spanking. And some time in the wilderness.

Basically I think Canada needs a change. It's healthy and ensures a centrist democracy. I think it needs a bit of a pendulum swing and Carney is not the one to do it. Not this round. Let him sit in opposition, spend time in the trenches, and as a person a bit helpless to do something. That creates a better politician.

Now, why should I believe Carney?

 

[Valcazar]

IAlso as you said, he hasn't released a real paper on his intentions. It's all very generic.

So is the conservative platform in many respects.

https://cpcassets.conservative.ca/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/23175001/990863517f7a575.pdf

 

[Butler1000]

I get that part.
I had difficulty with the notion that you would not vote for someone strictly for the reasons you mentioned.

People are, imo, projecting what they want to believe Carney is, without actually checking what he really is. Telling me what his policy is ,and that I must vote for him, when he himself hasn't done that.

And until then, he is nothing more than a private equity guy. I generally think they are scumbags. It's built into the job description. They will sell people out for cash.

 

[Butler1000]

So is the conservative platform in many respects.

https://cpcassets.conservative.ca/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/23175001/990863517f7a575.pdf

57 pages. It's not generic. It's quite clear on issues. It's fine if you don't like them. But don't lie about content.

 

[mellowjello]

Left, right, and centre are relative terms, different interpretations in the present and always shifting with time.
I used to call myself left, not anymore because of how it's evolved.
You say so yourself in the last line of this post.

At the risk of being accused of being pseudo-intellectual, I disagree.
Socialism, Communism, Capitalism are relatively absolute terms, there are tenets to those ideologies that you can revert to in discussion or argument.
Even those concepts are somewhat malleable with historical perspective.
There are no tenets to left, right, centre.
Labelling someone as pseudo-intellectual for a reasonable response, albeit a different one, is unwarranted in my opinion.

 

[boobtoucher]

The very lesson you say we need. I don't think handing the keys to Carney on the first go around is a good idea.

Do you ready think Carney isn't a card carrying member of the rich Neo-Liberal class? As a Bank Chairman and working for both Broomfield and Goldman-Sachs?

He's 100% neo-liberal. The overton window is so far right at the moment that moderate centrists are seen at the extreme left. BUT, politics is a bus, not a taxi. I'd rather get taken closer to my destination than further away.

And by on the same token, PP has a voting record: Against affordable housing, pro putin, pro banks, against healthcare, against the environment, etc, etc. etc.

20 years of Pierre Poilievre is enough.

Tune in to see Pierre's record over the past 20 years.

pierresrecord.ca

 

[Valcazar]

57 pages. It's not generic. It's quite clear on issues. It's fine if you don't like them. But don't lie about content.

I'm not.

Tell me this isn't generic?





These 57 pages are generic statements of intent.
You shouldn't pretend otherwise.

 

[Valcazar]

BUT, politics is a bus, not a taxi. I'd rather get taken closer to my destination than further away.

There are, however, people who think that is fundamentally evil.

 

[Butler1000]

I'm not.

Tell me this isn't generic?

View attachment 416496

View attachment 416499

These 57 pages are generic statements of intent.
You shouldn't pretend otherwise.

It is clear. Do you need twenty pages on each policy? About the same right? After that it's implementation details. What will the Liberal party put up? About the same right?

Show the Liberal Policy too. Show how it is substantially different in scope and detail.

 

[Butler1000]

He's 100% neo-liberal. The overton window is so far right at the moment that moderate centrists are seen at the extreme left. BUT, politics is a bus, not a taxi. I'd rather get taken closer to my destination than further away.

And by on the same token, PP has a voting record: Against affordable housing, pro putin, pro banks, against healthcare, against the environment, etc, etc. etc.

20 years of Pierre Poilievre is enough.

Tune in to see Pierre's record over the past 20 years.

pierresrecord.ca

In the USA yes, in Canada? The Overton window remains imo within the last 30 years of record. Under Trudeau socially more left(mostly fluff).