Dept of Government Effficiency ( DOGE)

[mandrill]

There's no way for a Trump Administration to enact slow, pedantic reforms. Unlike 1993, there will be no bipartisan support for such reforms. It's a pity but the Progressive and dominant wing of the Democratic party simply see any government spending as integral to expanding government. I think most rational people would think reform and efficiency can be leveraged to achieve government and societal objectives.

American businesses are adept at cutting here and adding there changing focus for changing circumstances. This is not something that the Washington behemoth is remotely capable of doing from within. I could bore the forum to tears discussing how many Federal agencies have overlapping functions. They also do not employ the latest technology to drive efficiencies. Most people realize the Federal redundancies are jobs programs. What many of the jobs actually do and perform is questionable.

As I said, I don't have to like Trump and Musk to understand and give them some time to cut through layers and decades of bureaucracy.

Except that isn't what is happening.

I don't see a measured plan to cut civil service excess.. I don't see an effort to even bring the GOP on board with the details of the plan and invite discussion and consensus. And I don't see any vestige of trying to do any of this constitutionally and competently.

I see a senile old fucktard and his drug addled buddy simply cutting whatever they don't like because they dgaf and doing it illegally and stupidly.

So you can spare us the "big government is bad" bullshit speech. That's not what's taking place here.

 

[mandrill]

I thought you were in favor of the US system being full of choke points and so requiring consensus.

Earp can be very flexible in his views.....

 

[Valcazar]

BTW most of the government workers live in Maryland and northern Virginia because they can't afford to live in the safe areas of DC.

Most government workers live outside of the DC metro area.

 

[WyattEarp]

As growth in the USA is largely service sector driven, the fact that there is a large affluent market in DC leads to other businesses establishing there and that creates a larger market and further demand. Like Toronto.

Population of Toronto was 3M in 1981. It's 7M now. Guess that's all the "government waste and corruption", huh?

Why has Dallas grown and Detroit collapsed? Or Phoenix grown?

Reasons why cities grow and fade are idiosyncratic.

Certainly, why cities grow or fade is idiosyncratic.

I'm just making a contrasting point about how Washington which is essentially a company town defies the economic and demographic limits of the rest of the country.

Toronto has a far more diverse economy than Washington D.C. Also, Canada's population has grown faster than the U.S. the last forty plus years.

 

[WyattEarp]

I thought you were in favor of the US system being full of choke points and so requiring consensus.

If you can cite some post or even a specific thought, I might be able to respond..

 

[WyattEarp]

Most government workers live outside of the DC metro area.

That is if you can locate the WFH workers.

 

[mandrill]

Certainly, why cities grow or fade is idiosyncratic.

I'm just making a contrasting point about how Washington which is essentially a company town defies the economic and demographic limits of the rest of the country.

Toronto has a far more diverse economy than Washington D.C. Also, Canada's population has grown faster than the U.S. the last forty plus years.

Dallas and Houston probably both have the same growth rates as DC. This stuff isn't weird or abnormal.

 

[mandrill]

That is if you can locate the WFH workers.

Well, we know 1 WFH-er who's usually off golfing, don't we?

 

[WyattEarp]

Earp, every western country is struggling with a failing economy and immigration adjustment fallout. Last week you were telling me Brexit was good because Germany was going to economically eat the rest of the EU.

Looks like you had a change of heart.

I have no idea where you are pulling this from. Context is important.......very important.

The point was Germany had basically took a huge bite out of the Italian and Spanish industrial base since the introduction of Euro over twenty five years ago. I specifically said Brexit was not this big economic headwind for the UK. I think I even said that like with all policies there would be winners and losers but the economy would adjust. The Brits who voted for Brexit were not happy with the policies that were inherently adopted by being in the EU.

The basic argument with Beaver was that by him citing that Brexit was causing a UK recession was ignoring recessionary pressures in the EU. The current reality is the U.K. economy did much better in 2024.

 

[WyattEarp]

Dallas and Houston probably both have the same growth rates as DC. This stuff isn't weird or abnormal.

It's called a subjective evaluation.

Texas has been one of the most dynamic economies in the Union over the last forty plus years. Many major corporations have been continually moving their headquarters to Texas. The State has everything going for it climate, taxes and a business friendly government. Until recently it rated high in affordability. Washington D.C. Northern Virginia and Maryland do not have all these features.

As part of my subjective evaluation, I am merely pointing out that the metro Washington D.C. area has grown far more rapidly than the country in aggregate. Incidentally, I believe some defense contractors are headquartered in the D.C. area.

 

[mandrill]

It's called a subjective evaluation.

Texas has been one of the most dynamic economies in the Union over the last forty plus years. Many major corporations have been continually moving their headquarters to Texas. The State has everything going for it climate, taxes and a business friendly government. Until recently it rated high in affordability. Washington D.C. Northern Virginia and Maryland do not have all these features.

As part of my subjective evaluation, I am merely pointing out that the metro Washington D.C. area has grown far more rapidly than the country in aggregate. Incidentally, I believe some defense contractors are headquartered in the D.C. area.

Dallas-Fort Worth Metro Area Population 1950-2025

Chart and table of population level and growth rate for the Dallas-Fort Worth metro area from 1950 to 2025. United Nations population projections are also included through the year 2035.

www.macrotrends.net

Flogging a dead horse, but the population of DFW has tripled since 1980. Large cities tend to attract residents and businesses, as they also tend to house amenities and educational, recruitment and employment opportunities. Some cities thrive. Some collapse. Why for instance would Atlanta grow massively?

 

[mandrill]

I have no idea where you are pulling this from. Context is important.......very important.

The point was Germany had basically took a huge bite out of the Italian and Spanish industrial base since the introduction of Euro over twenty five years ago. I specifically said Brexit was not this big economic headwind for the UK. I think I even said that like with all policies their would be winners and losers but the economy would adjust. The Brits who voted for Brexit were not happy with the policies that were inherently adopted by being in the EU.

The basic argument with Beaver was that by him citing that Brexit was causing a UK recession was ignoring recessionary pressures in the EU. The current reality is the U.K. economy did much better in 2024.

IIRC - and being a Brit, I watched closely - Brexit tended to attract the same voting base as the GOP or currently the Brit Reform Party.

Less sophisticated voters who can be sold on "national character and our traditions" bullshit and very rich dickheads who want to control the government that taxes them. I don't recall there being any sophisticated economic analysis and there was a lot of rhetoric about booting out non whites. Of course nothing happened, except the rich got to avoid some looming EU tax laws and environmental regulations.

I know a lot of small mom-and-pop companies went bankrupt because they couldn't sell to Europe any more. And Britain is 100% post industrial at this point and makes $$$ via its financial sector. So I doubt that German industrial might would have had much impact.

 

[WyattEarp]

Well, we know 1 WFH-er who's usually off golfing, don't we?

Yes, he is WF

Dallas-Fort Worth Metro Area Population 1950-2025

Chart and table of population level and growth rate for the Dallas-Fort Worth metro area from 1950 to 2025. United Nations population projections are also included through the year 2035.

www.macrotrends.net

Flogging a dead horse, but the population of DFW has tripled since 1980. Large cities tend to attract residents and businesses, as they also tend to house amenities and educational, recruitment and employment opportunities. Some cities thrive. Some collapse. Why for instance would Atlanta grow massively?

Atlanta has grown for similar reasons as DFW. If the Washington area had a more diverse economy, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Also, everyone knows the Sun Belt has been booming for decades. Washington is not really in the Sun Belt.

By the way, I see Ottawa has grown incredibly rapidly. That should be no surprise.

 

[mandrill]

Yes, he is WF

Atlanta has grown for similar reasons as DFW. If the Washington area had a more diverse economy, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Also, everyone knows the Sun Belt has been booming for decades. Washington is not really in the Sun Belt.

By the way, I see Ottawa has grown incredibly rapidly. That should be no surprise.

I don't think Ottawa has. I'm a bit of a geography nerd and it's pretty stable.

 

[Valcazar]

If you can cite some post or even a specific thought, I might be able to respond..

I just responded to it.
You said they couldn't do what Gore and Clinton did because there wouldn't be bi-partisan support.
I took this to mean that since they might get blocked by Congress (since it has the power to block actions) they should just bypass Congress and assert power over the purse.
In other words, your view now seems to have switched from "the system being designed to go slow and force consensus is only good when it blocks things I want and should be violated if it is an inconvenience to things I want".

 

[Valcazar]

That is if you can locate the WFH workers.

Cute.

But you know that 85% of federal workers are outside the DC Metro area.
I was just cleaning up the "most of them live in Maryland and Virginia" thing.

 

[mandrill]

Yes, he is WF

Atlanta has grown for similar reasons as DFW. If the Washington area had a more diverse economy, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Also, everyone knows the Sun Belt has been booming for decades. Washington is not really in the Sun Belt.

By the way, I see Ottawa has grown incredibly rapidly. That should be no surprise.

Ottawa-Gatineau, Canada Metro Area Population 1950-2025

Chart and table of population level and growth rate for the Ottawa-Gatineau, Canada metro area from 1950 to 2025. United Nations population projections are also included through the year 2035.

www.macrotrends.net

Earp, here is a graph and stats as to the growth of Ottawa. It's got about a 100% growth ratio since 1980, which is in line with most other urban centres that are not economically depressed. Canada's population has doubled in that time as well. Growth has been around 1% per year and has tapered off in the last few years. In the 70's, the growth rate was around 4% per annum.

(To use your argument, maybe "leftie" Trudeau has been down sizing the government..... )

I'm trying to understand your argument , which appears to be:

1. Washington DC and Ottawa have both grown moderately in the last 40 years.
2.. This must mean the lefties are making everyone a government employee and destroying the nation.
3. For some reason, this requires over turning the Constitution and making Trump and Musk co dictators.......

 

[WyattEarp]

Ottawa-Gatineau, Canada Metro Area Population 1950-2025

Chart and table of population level and growth rate for the Ottawa-Gatineau, Canada metro area from 1950 to 2025. United Nations population projections are also included through the year 2035.

www.macrotrends.net

Earp, here is a graph and stats as to the growth of Ottawa. It's got about a 100% growth ratio since 1980, which is in line with most other urban centres that are not economically depressed. Canada's population has doubled in that time as well. Growth has been around 1% per year and has tapered off in the last few years. In the 70's, the growth rate was around 4% per annum.

(To use your argument, maybe "leftie" Trudeau has been down sizing the government..... )

I'm trying to understand your argument , which appears to be:

1. Washington DC and Ottawa have both grown moderately in the last 40 years.
2.. This must mean the lefties are making everyone a government employee and destroying the nation.
3. For some reason, this requires over turning the Constitution and making Trump and Musk co dictators.......

My point is straightforward. And as I have told Valcazar in the past, there are simply opinions that you can't simply dismiss if they are based on reasonable data and information.

The simple fact is that the Washington D.C. area has grown rapidly relative to the rest of the country. You can introduce Sun Belt cities and all the like to support your opinion. The other simple fact is that Washington is a company town dependent on government employment and spending.

I don't know Ottawa very well. I have a sense it might be more dependent than the Washington area on government spending. My only substantive knowledge of Ottawa is that Federal government employment grew 43% under Trudeau.

My advice and this is real advice is if you or anyone here owns property in Ottawa, sell it now before the elections.

 

[Frankfooter]

My point is simple. And as I have told Valcazar in the past, there are simply opinions that you can't simply dismiss if they are based on reasonable data and information.

The simple fact is that the Washington D.C. area has grown rapidly relative to the rest of the country. You can introduce Sun Belt cities and all the like to support your opinion. The other simple fact is that Washington is a company town dependent on government employment and spending.

I don't know Ottawa very well. I have a sense it might be more dependent than the Washington area on government spending. My only substantive knowledge of Ottawa is that Federal government employment grew 43% under Trudeau.

My advice and this is real advice is if you or anyone here owns property in Ottawa, sell it now before the elections.

The problem is that growth is there due to lobbyists from the 1% that were changing the US into an oligarchy. All you've done now is done away with any pretence that the US is a democracy and given total control to the oligarchs.

 

[WyattEarp]

Cute.

But you know that 85% of federal workers are outside the DC Metro area.
I was just cleaning up the "most of them live in Maryland and Virginia" thing.

Yes, I got that you were clearing up the Maryland and Virginia thing. I really didn't know what Kherg was trying to point out. I thought everyone knew Washington DC is a city with all it's suburbs in neighboring Maryland and Virginia.