Doug Ford proposes tunneling under the 401 to create an underground freeway to relieve 401 congestion

[Skoob]

Looking at from a particularly selfish point of view, anything that Douggy does now won't be finished until long after a lot of us are dead so don't care

All government projects take longer than estimated, doesn't matter who is in power.
I do admire this government for exploring ideas and thinking outside the box rather than doing nothing like Toronto has for the past 40 years.

If Boston can do it, so can we.

 

[maurice93]

Where there's a will there's a way.

Would it be more expensive than the currently proposed tunnel?

A 10% minority stake of the highway 407 partnership sold for about $3 billion in 2019 -- which implies the total value of the operating contract for the 407 is about $30 billion. That was in 2019, so with normal equity growth in the past 5 years its conservatively closer to $40 million now. Great that the province sold it for a little under $2 billion.

That 10% stake didn't give the stakeholder control either so it might not have been max calue... so to buy back the entire highway from all partners it would probably be at a premium.... so maybe $60 billion to buy back the operating contract which ends around the year 2095.

I'm sure that would be much cheaper than the tunnel.
That being said if this crazy tunnel idea did go through, it would give an extra highway beyond the 401 and 407, so there are benefits to that.

 

[xmontrealer]

Looking at from a particularly selfish point of view, anything that Douggy does now won't be finished until long after a lot of us are dead so don't care

Certainly true for me. But I can't imagine how fucked up the aboveground 401 is going to be during the construction process.

And what the heck is under the current 401 now? I imagine there will be a lot of issues to overcome while tunneling, not to mention the necessity of keeping all sections of the aboveground 401 from caving in...

 

[Frankfooter]

Certainly true for me. But I can't imagine how fucked up the aboveground 401 is going to be during the construction process.

And what the heck is under the current 401 now? I imagine there will be a lot of issues to overcome while tunneling, not to mention the necessity of keeping all sections of the aboveground 401 from caving in...

DoFo's real goal is just to screw up toronto cuz we didn't vote for him.
That's why he put a Russian oligarch in charge of metrolinx construction.
That's why he'll never open the Eglington LRT or any of his other projects.

They are all to be eternal messes for his revenge.

 

[jimidean2011]

A 10% minority stake of the highway 407 partnership sold for about $3 billion in 2019 -- which implies the total value of the operating contract for the 407 is about $30 billion. That was in 2019, so with normal equity growth in the past 5 years its conservatively closer to $40 million now. Great that the province sold it for a little under $2 billion.

That 10% stake didn't give the stakeholder control either so it might not have been max calue... so to buy back the entire highway from all partners it would probably be at a premium.... so maybe $60 billion to buy back the operating contract which ends around the year 2095.

I'm sure that would be much cheaper than the tunnel.
That being said if this crazy tunnel idea did go through, it would give an extra highway beyond the 401 and 407, so there are benefits to that.

That's a pretty grim analysis. I feel like we could find some sort of legal loophole to regain possession of it but at the same time I've never viewed the contract. It just seems illogical to build another highway and one underground at that. Now do I think it would be cool? Sure, but at what cost and at what point would said highway actually be usable? Not anytime soon so that doesn't really solve Toronto's traffic problem in a practical way.

 

[Anbarandy]

All government projects take longer than estimated, doesn't matter who is in power.
I do admire this government for exploring ideas and thinking outside the box rather than doing nothing like Toronto has for the past 40 years.

If Boston can do it, so can we.

The above post is as ludicrous and half-baked as a Doug the Thug's wet dream, fantasy 401 tunnel.

What is to admire about the Thug spouting pre-election bullshit fantasies?

Boston's two Big-Dig tunnels are a total of 5km. It took 2 and a half decades from inception to completion. It cost U.S. $10billion back then 20 years ago. The traffic chaos and congestion it created was legendary for it's depth, scope and longevity.

Thug's pre-election nonsense tunnel would be, get this 55 fuckin kms! It is stated tunneling would cost $1billion per km which of course is understated by at least 1/2. What would happen to the existing 401 traffic as they are burrowing underneath for probably 4 or 5 decades, destabilizing everything around, above and below and the mess of traffic gridlock for that half century of futility.

Never mind having the monumental engineering challenges, rivers, deep ravines, existing infrastructure etc to surmount.

All of this for what, when for much less cost, disruption, chaos, certainty and feasibility and viability other solutions are available.

We are talking about a half century project, if it even is doable, costing at least $100billion that will be just as congested as the 401 in short time.

 

[Skoob]

The above post is as ludicrous and half-baked as a Doug the Thug wet dream, fantasy 401 tunnel.

What is to admire the Thug spouting pre-election bullshit fantasies?

Boston's two Big-Dig tunnels are a total of 5km. It took 2 and a half decades from inception to completion. It cost U.S. $10billion back then 20 years ago. The traffic chaos and congestion it created was legendary for it's depth, scope and longevity.

Thug's pre-election nonsense tunnel would be, get this 55 fuckin kms! It is stated tunneling would cost $1billion per km which of course is understated by at least 1/2. What would happen to the existing 401 traffic as they are burrowing underneath for probably 4 or 5 decades, destabilizing everything around, above and below and the mess of traffic gridlock for that half century of futility.

Never mind having the monumental engineering challenges, rivers, deep ravines, existing infrastructure etc to surmount.

All of this for what, when for much less cost, disruption, chaos, certainty and feasibility and viability other solutions are available.

We are talking about a half century project, if it even is doable, costing at least $100billion that will be just as congested as the 401 in short time.

There was opposition to building the Toronto subway decades ago for many of the same reasons...if Marxists like you had their way we wouldn't have it now.
Building infrastructure is always going to be expensive and take a long time.
That's not a reason to not think about the future.

Why are you so against something that hasn't even had a proper feasibility study conducted?

The 401 is the busiest highway in North America...but why don't you keep pretending that cars don't exist if it makes you feel better.

 

[JeanGary Diablo]

European cities are comprised differently and shouldn't be compared to Toronto as far as applying similar solutions.
Last time our councilors visited European cities for ideas they came back with bike lanes and fucked up traffic even more.

Weakest argument ever.

 

[Skoob]

Weakest argument ever.

Not quite...the weakest argument ever is the one where the only response is "the weakest argument ever."

 

[JeanGary Diablo]

Not quite...the weakest argument ever is the one where the only response is "the weakest argument ever."

Do you want to be more like Europe or more like 'Murica?

 

[tml]

The solution is to build some bicycle lanes on the 401. Problem solved.

 

[Leimonis]

let's invite hamas, they are world champions at digging tunnels

 

[Frankfooter]

let's invite hamas, they are world champions at digging tunnels

Now you want to justify Israel attacking Toronto too?

 

[Skoob]

Do you want to be more like Europe or more like 'Murica?

I want to be more like Canada...but Canada wants to be more like China.

 

[boobtoucher]

Alright guys, 2 options:

1: You get a little patch of grass. It costs so much that you spend 40% of your life paying for it. That grass is 1.5 hours away from the job you need to pay for it, so you are giving away 3 hours every day. To get to the job, you need a $40,000 thing that will be worth $0 in 10 years. You will also need to spend $1000/month to fuel, insure, and maintain the $40,000 thing. Any time you need food/household goods/entertainment/etc. you have to "drive" your $40,000 thing 30 minutes as well. As a result, you don't leave your patch of grass much. You can't afford to, and it's kind of a pain. Also: Your $40,000 thing gives you lung cancer. And Billions of your tax dollars go to subsidize the industry that makes, fuels, and gives pathways to your $40,000 thing.

2: You SHARE a big patch of grass. You can walk or SHARE a ride to your job. Its 30 minutes or less from where you live. All of a sudden, you have 2 extra hours a day and $20,000 more in your bank account every year. You can afford to travel, you have a social group outside of your family. The government has more money for healthcare, social programs, etc.

I understand option 2 is not for everyone, but it is genuinely a lifestyle that doesn't exist in the GTA. Building more roads ties future generations to the debt cycle lifestyle. Building transit, missing-middle, walkable neighbourhoods breaks that debt cycle, and allows people to have more fulfilling lives, at the cost of big-corp profits.

 

[Anbarandy]

There was opposition to building the Toronto subway decades ago for many of the same reasons...if Marxists like you had their way we wouldn't have it now.
Building infrastructure is always going to be expensive and take a long time.
That's not a reason to not think about the future.

Why are you so against something that hasn't even had a proper feasibility study conducted?

The 401 is the busiest highway in North America...but why don't you keep pretending that cars don't exist if it makes you feel better.

The above a strip mall massage parlor 'Skoobie School of Business, Economics and Infrastructure' introduces its brand new, shiny course:

Digging Holes Just Because 101:

 

[Frankfooter]

Alright guys, 2 options:

1: You get a little patch of grass. It costs so much that you spend 40% of your life paying for it. That grass is 1.5 hours away from the job you need to pay for it, so you are giving away 3 hours every day. To get to the job, you need a $40,000 thing that will be worth $0 in 10 years. You will also need to spend $1000/month to fuel, insure, and maintain the $40,000 thing. Any time you need food/household goods/entertainment/etc. you have to "drive" your $40,000 thing 30 minutes as well. As a result, you don't leave your patch of grass much. You can't afford to, and it's kind of a pain. Also: Your $40,000 thing gives you lung cancer. And Billions of your tax dollars go to subsidize the industry that makes, fuels, and gives pathways to your $40,000 thing.

2: You SHARE a big patch of grass. You can walk or SHARE a ride to your job. Its 30 minutes or less from where you live. All of a sudden, you have 2 extra hours a day and $20,000 more in your bank account every year. You can afford to travel, you have a social group outside of your family. The government has more money for healthcare, social programs, etc.

I understand option 2 is not for everyone, but it is genuinely a lifestyle that doesn't exist in the GTA. Building more roads ties future generations to the debt cycle lifestyle. Building transit, missing-middle, walkable neighbourhoods breaks that debt cycle, and allows people to have more fulfilling lives, at the cost of big-corp profits.

Except for the Mandrills of the world, who live downtown but are pissed they can't drive 5 blocks to work easily that makes total sense.

 

[Skoob]

The above a strip mall massage parlor 'Skoobie School of Business, Economics and Infrastructure' introduces its brand new, shiny course:

Digging Holes Just Because 101:

Predictable response by someone who can't see the future beyond their next carbon rebate cheque.

 

[Skoob]

Alright guys, 2 options:

1: You get a little patch of grass. It costs so much that you spend 40% of your life paying for it. That grass is 1.5 hours away from the job you need to pay for it, so you are giving away 3 hours every day. To get to the job, you need a $40,000 thing that will be worth $0 in 10 years. You will also need to spend $1000/month to fuel, insure, and maintain the $40,000 thing. Any time you need food/household goods/entertainment/etc. you have to "drive" your $40,000 thing 30 minutes as well. As a result, you don't leave your patch of grass much. You can't afford to, and it's kind of a pain. Also: Your $40,000 thing gives you lung cancer. And Billions of your tax dollars go to subsidize the industry that makes, fuels, and gives pathways to your $40,000 thing.

2: You SHARE a big patch of grass. You can walk or SHARE a ride to your job. Its 30 minutes or less from where you live. All of a sudden, you have 2 extra hours a day and $20,000 more in your bank account every year. You can afford to travel, you have a social group outside of your family. The government has more money for healthcare, social programs, etc.

I understand option 2 is not for everyone, but it is genuinely a lifestyle that doesn't exist in the GTA. Building more roads ties future generations to the debt cycle lifestyle. Building transit, missing-middle, walkable neighbourhoods breaks that debt cycle, and allows people to have more fulfilling lives, at the cost of big-corp profits.

Just ask working parents who have a couple kids in school and in sports how realistic it is to walk or ride a bike to get them everywhere they need to go, especially during winter months.
While you're at it, ask people who physically can't walk far or ride a bike.

Not everyone lives in downtown Toronto or wants to.

 

[silentkisser]

He's not going to do it. It's silly-ass bullshit.

A fucking tunnel?!?!?!?.... Put a couple of extra lanes either way and keep adding.

I guess he must've just heard about Boston's Big Dig, which went massively over budget and time...Actually, its sort of similar to the Eglinton LRT....